Staff deleting/hiding threads.

I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say here, but I'm afraid it can be understood as willingness to trade freedom for some kind of protection. Like you would accept censorship because of hope that you would be protected from rude posts, personal attacks, trolling and similar. This wouldn't work, because censorship is violence and it just induces more violence, not less.

I'm quite sure that the majority here would like
this forum to be a place where everyone can say anything in a civilized and polite manner.

Moderation is very much needed and welcome, but with means other than hiding contents or locking threads. Without censorship.

"Moderating" by locking threads is

• cheap - as the moderator doesn't make effort to really moderate the discussion. Stopping it isn't moderating.
• unfair - because everyone is being affected, not just single posts or persons where the rules are broken, and because everyone is held from expressing opinion, answering, bringing in new ideas etc.
• pretending to know better - while really, moderation is by no means "knowing better".
• counter-productive - because moderation should help the discussion to go on and not break it.
• counter-productive (2) - because it is violence that is expected to create more tension and more violence.

These might be fair points if you were talking about a free or democratic society. But its not even a place you are required to be.
Also my personal problem with your argument:
Everyone agrees to the rules before they even join You agree not to be rude or hateful of other people's ideas.
There are always ways to speak your mind without being rude or hateful. Its really not a problem.
It isn't like we arbitrarily end discussions or silence dissent.

Its like you've been there.

I actually feel pretty personally about this. Not because I am a moderator, but because I am a user here.
I'm very used to being shut down on other places and in real life. This is literally the only place I feel comfortable to be myself and speak my mind.
Nobody has told me I am *insert epitaph here* and if they tell me to shut up, the are polite about it. I am allowed to be just as I am here. Any input I have ever had is considered just as much as anyone else's.
Its so important to me that I have a voice here, because I really don't have one elsewhere.

To be fair most Empires have been like, "Let's conquer that land over there! There's people there? Kill them all! They're too tough to kill? Assimilate them! Why don't they like us?". Then they got crushed by uprisings or other countries or just decided 'Wow, we've been massive pillocks these last few hundred years. We should probably leave the areas we've forcefully taken off people...'.

I know, I know; I wasn't going to comment but...

So when I request a thread to be locked I'm now also playing it cheap, unfair to the others, pretend to know things better and of course I'm counter productive? And does that also apply to all the posts in the auction archives?

I'm just asking because, hmm, well; these are also 2 examples of moderating.

Or did you mean to say that: "it is fair for those mentioned threads but not for those in which the community is discussing"? But then you're threading on dangerous terms if you really value fairness as much as you say. Because now you're entering the exact same unfair realms as the staff.

Because then it would be my turn to ask you: "Who are you to determine that one thread is more important than the other where locking is concerned?" (this is obviously an example and not a personal attack).

I know I'm playing the devils advocate here and I also realize that my example is a bit unfair (but still true). This was a perfect example to get my point across. When it comes to moderation and setting up rules to play by you can't just randomly apply the rules whenever they suit you; you need to keep them in mind all the time.

Also... I think many people are picking up freedom of speech in a completely wrong way. Sure; you're allowed to express your opinion by law, but that doesn't mean that you get to decide what platform to use for that and to force others to comply with it.

If I'm setting up a barbecue with my friends then that's really not the right time nor the right place for someone to come into our yard and start ranting on how much barbecue's pollute the sky and that everyone who uses them should be considered as criminals who are best served with a bucket of cold water. Try it and we'll escort you from our lawn, thank you very much.

When you get into my house (or yard, or lawn (lol)) then my rules apply. Rules I don't even mention to you up front but which I still expect you to respect and follow up on. Why would visiting a forum or game be any different? (where you can even check out the rules before writing one single letter).

If you're a guest then you follow the rules set by the host. You may not like those rules, that's obviously fully up to you, but yeah... They still apply.

well said shell. -clap clap clap- And thank u for saying what I cant, with my being new and all. all every one needs to do is obey the rules!

Hello, everyone. I was not going to join in but I put a lot of time reading this entire thread last night when I could have been in game because it seemed important to many people. Since it is still going on this morning, I would like to say something.

I am glad to see that I am on a server where many people care, sometimes deeply, how it is run. There is nothing worse than to set up a server and people come, stay a little while and then just leave without a peep. Something is very RIGHT here. I love the diversity of people that have come together from around the world with the same basic reason in mind, be a part of a community that is focused on Minecraft.

As I stated, I read the posts I don't remember them all. I can feel the frustration from both players and staff. The job of staff is not easy and they don't always have the answer or the answer that we want to hear. Sometimes they might have a crises in their life (real life) while we are upset about ingame griefing of something. They are supposed to be the cool headed one, Jhonny on the spot, who will save the day. In time they will become the best staff any server has seen, but only if WE the players help them do their job. We must be patient with them while they learn to be proficient and remember.... they want to play too.

I am as guilty of outburst as anyone maybe even moreso. I will not repost the event nor name anyone and ask that no one bring up personally identifiably information. I was simply accused of something falsely and then it started. I made a lot of forum posts.... I formerly apologized for my actions, because I took a look back at what I did and realized that while I was in no way wrong for what I had been accused of, I was better than what I had portrayed myself to be. I felt my online persona was being dissed and needed to step up cuz I aint no punk!

I will even say it to the staff again, I am sorry, that was uncalled for. I am glad that I did not get a time out for it. I was getting hot. I communicated with the staff, they understood my situation and since I took responsibility for my actions, it ended well.

Yes, I am sticking up for the staff and Aikar who has to make many decisions to keep the ball rolling. If I truly wanted to make a change I would try to join the staff and work with the company to further the companies goals in a direction that I know would be beneficial. But it is Aikar's bat and ball and we are playing in his stadium. Aikar has set up a system with rules that he has allowed to be debated so that they are realistic to the community at large. The staff are trying to make our gaming experience fun and seamless not oppressive.

Yes, I am sticking up for the players. What is a server without players? What is a player without passion? It takes all kinds to make a community... and that's what we have! I play here because I never know who I might meet next and to see the friends I have made. I also love that I can get away and be alone and do my own thing for as long as I want. As a player, when you want something, you need to ask for it and follow up on it. If something is wrong, the thing to do is take a some time and think about it then, point out the issue and suggest one or two possible suggestions for change that are realistic. Start a BRAINSTORM thread instead of a GRAB YOUR PITCHFORK thread and if you start the thread you should be the one to help monitor the attitude of the conversation to steer it where you want it.

Finally, with much trepidation, I heard people mention freedom of speech. I believe we can all agree that our individual freedom should not be interfered with by anything. This does not mean we should enjoy a free for all. This means that we are allowed to follow our personal choices. Yes, that includes this forum. It is my personal choice to join this forum and post here, no one forced me. It is my choice to follow the rules. If I choose to break the rules I have chosen to accept the consequence that is associated with the rule that I have broken. I have used my freedom to make that choice. My freedom does not end where yours begins.

I grew up with people from many nationalities Tongan, Samoan, Filipino, Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiian, European, American and we got along pretty well in that island environment. There were issues, sure, we had to learn something that they don't teach in school, despite a lot of minor things, we are all people and we are all the same.

I did not post this to join in as a repeat poster. I really want this to be like a town meeting style, one and done. OK, maybe the possibility of clarification of any point if requested.

Thank you everyone, please be patient with each other and remember there is a person on the other end of that monitor who is trying to be your friend.

Acemox2k

Well, in the political sense. I was thinking partly of the business, but moreso social sense, where it a wide spectrum of people united under one central leadership.

Perhaps a small misunderstanding - I don't support rude or hateful posts by any means. That's what moderation is for - to keep the discussion civilized and productive. Just not by locking / hiding / deleting the whole thread.

Thank you for being EMC moderator!

When a thread is hateful or breaks the rules or as a whole becomes overly rowdy/off topic how would you suggest it be handled?
Also: the main reason we would lock or delete an entire thread is because the user who posted it asks us to or because it is a finished auction. What other solutions would you suggest for that?

Unfair because it misses the point - because it tries to lead the discussion away from the topic.

Regarding true, it is also true
that the sky is mostly blue.

• you're not moderating it
• you just want it to be marked as solved
• it would be better to add [Solved] to the subject
• as much as you would perhaps like it to be "finial and finished for ever", it might mot be the case for other people - they could have some other valuable ideas and comments.

IMO, better don't lock it.

Almost no need to comment on that, I guess we all know why it is good to mark finished auction threads and move them to the archive. There's nothing fair nor unfair there.

There is no need. Locking of a discussion thread is not needed at all. It is good moderation what is needed.

Sure, very true, but that can not - and must not - be a reason or an excuse for poor moderation.

This can be understood in a very wrong way - as if you were saying that you have right to do anything you want on your private property. Like e.g. maltreating your guests. That is, of course, not the case.

This can also be understood in another wrong way - that if you provide means for a community to form, that you have rights to do with that people and that community as you please? I don't think so.

Excuse me, but we do want people to feel comfortable here, we do want them to stay.
To achieve that we need good, non-violent moderation.
I think this is simple as that the water flows downhill.

This doesn't have anything to do with law ... I hope.
It has to do with how we treat each other and how the community lives - if the people here feel comfortable.

What matters is how people feel and if they're going to stay.

When the subject of the thread breaks the rules / is clearly inappropriate: warn the OP and lock it, perhaps even delete / hide it. Example: p0rn, drugs, ...
Same if the first posting is obviously hateful and/or breaks the rules and the thread is new, there isn't a discussion going on.

Otherwise: the thread itself is not the problem, but some people and/or postings might be.
- Decide if postings need editing, copy the original contents, edit the post while marking and making your edit obvious, send the original content back to the poster (pm), ask to edit / adjust the posting
- Warn people and ask for adjustment:
"You have written <quote or reference> which I see as breaking rule <rule or reference>. Please adjust your posting and please keep the forum rules."

Same as above "Otherwise".

Leave it to people discussing.
If requested, perhaps split the thread in two.
If you're moderating, think of how to help the discussion go on, not how to end it.

Use common sense:
- if it is a [Selling] thread or similar, the person running it does own the thread - help her / him.

- if it is a discussion, then the person who started it does not "own" the discussion, does not own other postings in the thread, and has no right to stop the discussion. Imagine you're in a group of people and you start a discussion. Do you have the right to force others to stop discussing? No. Everyone can edit own posts, and everyone can "unwatch" / leave a discussion.

Like [Selling] above. That's not a discussion thread. Marking it with [Closed] in the subject would be good, but locking does the job and also prevents it to appear again in the list of recent threads.

@all staff / generally: don't provoke resentment -

• serve the community
• do not hide behind "we"
• don't "we" vs. "them"
• don't hide behind (don't use) bureaucratic language
• don't elevate yourself or the "we" above the community
• don't think that you "know" what the community needs without even asking
• don't think that you know better
• avoid force and violence, avoid violence in the communication, also avoid subtle violence
• know and explain the reasons behind any rules
• do not make arbitrary / ill-conceived rules
• respect people and the community
• ask the community
• do not patronize / infantilize / treat like a child / try to domineer over the community

One thing is for sure, we're not going to agree

[About me requesting a thread to be locked]

If a thread is locked because of my request then that is exactly what I did. Without my request it would probably not have been locked.

In my particular example I didn't. I explicitly asked it to be locked in order to make sure that it wouldn't stray too far off from my original question.

Thing is...

The one thing which starts to puzzle me right now is what exactly you consider "Moderation" to be? In another post you mention how it would be better to warn people, yet that is exactly what happened in almost every thread which ended up getting locked. And not just by the staff, even players themselves have issued warnings about "guys, lets not let this get out of control", yet despite that it still. happened.

I have witnessed threads where the OP themselves became highly upset over the way their thread spiraled completely out of control and also urged (pleaded) the posters to stay on topic (I'm now referring to AussieZaid's thread about "The future of EMC"). People saw it (I hope) and fully ignored it.

If this happens time and time and time again (and it has!) then surely it becomes a bit obvious that simply asking people to stop just doesn't work?

To be honest I can't recognize the kind of staff you refer to in your posts at all.

Guys can I step in right here ?
None of you are superior to another, nor are you all ranked lower than anybody else in the whole community. Never forget something we all share - We Are All Imperfect. Yes, I've seen each of you do something I like, something I know undoubtedly others do too. But we all have flaws - Our Strengths and Weaknesses - it's just part of being human individuals. I can see each of your views on how things can be handled differently, and I honestly whole-heartedly want to believe that you're all right to an extent.

When push turns into shoving, and the audience watching from beyond can see clearly that someone has to step up to resolve "said" situations. . . well that's what happens, the staff team do what is required - best they can. Why, could you imagine if nothing was done ? http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ly5s9zsiKj1qi6oljo1_500.gif

Someone special to me once explained to me how it's just the card you've been dealt, and it is how you as an individual handle the issue that counts or plays it out. None of us can do a perfect job, all we can do is decide what to do with the time that is given to us. I like to think many of you are my friends in EMC. . . I don't like to see y'all fighting in-game or here on the forums. Disagreements can just be that - they don't need to be anything more - right? I mean what's the point! I like the staff team here. They do a good job, but who is to say they could be doing things better? We all could, so who are we to judge them? We haven't lived their life or seen what they've been through. I've said too much...

Don't hate bro's!
http://31.media.tumblr.com/008051309bbb51714efb68bd7cf86c48/tumblr_inline_nhbc0dwyKx1rkygkg.gif

So basically what we do already?
Edit:
I don't know how "we" which is what one would use to describe a group you belong to elevates us.
Literally the only thing that is different between Moderators and the rest of the community is that we have accepted the responsibility to assist the whole. We're not better at all. Moderators just have some tools to help us help you. We actually have more rules to follow.
I don't speak for the others, but I also feel like I have more to lose. More people know me and judge my actions. Meanwhile sometimes I have to make decisions that make me look like a bad guy. If I have to put myself at a disadvantage I will.
I feel like any action I take will be asserting power. I wield a Banhammer after all. Destruction and creation are two sides of the same coin. Someone will always lose. I would rather make sure most of us win.

Forum moderation - helping forum discussions to go on and be productive according to forum rules.

I'm just saying it is better not to lock, it is better to react to distinct postings, warn distinct people, perhaps edit distinct postings - and not to lock everyone out. Locking isn't helping to improve and have a productive discussion.

Sure, but this is normal, and unless rules are broken all you can do is ask people to stay on topic and/or change thread. Compare to a verbal discussion with a group of people. Using force won't do good.

Moderating can well go further than just simply asking: answer their needs in a good way, edit posts (turn off their mike), but don't let one or few spoil it for everyone.

I like your your description of mods very much, but this last 3 sentences are a disputable philosophy.
I guess we would agree that the basic needs can be met for everyone here, that is, when basic needs are in question there is no need to have any losers.

Yes, I'm glad you see it this way.

I don't want to pull out old threads and discussions, I don't think that would be productive discussion.
Just to explain my motive - I do remember threads that I wanted to answer or continue discussing, but that got locked in the meantime without - in my opinion - a sound reason. I remember threads with "it's their game", "leave if you don't like it", etc. I remember threads where staff has gone defensive and didn't answer to criticism in a good way - and where that was adding more heat and tension. ...

Advice: take it easy!

But let's not look at the past. We have this thread for reference and further discussion if it will be needed. I hope that at least majority of the staff thinks as you think about this issues.

Of course, moderation is needed. But kind and gentle, non-violent. Especially with kids.
(We've had this discussion on EMC several times - regarding dealing with kids fighting - my opinion is still: be moderate, gentle, non-violent, as this will reduce the violence and produce the best results overall.)

That's what it is. A productive discussion.

I'm going to be "that" guy but oh well...

When reading these posts then I can't help wonder if we're not forgetting something: Action = Reaction.

You spend a lot of time commenting on how you think the staff aren't doing a good job (something I don't agree with, but can respect), but what about the people who broke the rules and/or misbehaved? Why don't I hear anything about them?

I think you're overlooking and maybe ignoring one very important detail: the staff does not take action without a probable cause; a reason which always finds its origin here (or something forum specific). Also important to know is that they don't always drop the hammer but do warn. And I know

When I added my alt onto the game I overlooked the small rule about likes and such, also because I never thought anything off it. To me it was all roleplay and definitely not the idea of pushing anothers likes (heck, as if I need that). The staff didn't hide in the shadows waiting for me to make that one final mistake after which they could hunt me down like a pack of nether hounds (lol!) but instead a Senior Staff (Hi Chin!) PM'd me to warn me that I was overlooking the rules about ALTs and likes and such. I wasn't even close of it becoming a problem but staff still felt that they should warn me and point it out. This one:

• Using alt accounts or friends to boost likes, followers, or trophies. Alternate accounts include any accounts on your IP connection, even if you're not the same person.

So yeah, what about those people who break the rules in the first place?

Anyway, speaking of my alt; time to get GripCEO online, I'm about to get him a new residence. And this time I won't like any possible announcements he might make (not because of this rule, but because he always threatens to fire us and I don't like him anyway ).

Few years back I was a mod on 2 different sports torrent sites. There was no game side of things so I cannot comment on that. Instead it was 100% forums and website moderation. (Note: Before I go into this, please understand this is not to criticize EMC's staff or how/why they do things. Instead just an example of how things like this were handled.)

As mods of these sites were rarely locked threads. Instead we messaged the poster about it and either asked them to edit/delete it or we just edited it/deleted it with a reason. Much like here, most of the threads that got locked were about religion/political/etc. and only after many attempts to keep it civil. The only other threads we locked were in a sub-forum section for banned users. Only users to use this section were staff and banned users so was never an issue. And even there threads were locked once an issue was settled.

We didn't have many threads (if any) like this or in general badmouthing staff. IMO any thread regarding negativity towards staff should not exist anyways and should be handled personally but that's just me. In the rare chance we had something like this, we took it private and hashed it out there.

I'm not going to pretend to know how things are done here or tell anyone what they should/shouldn't do here. Just my thoughts on a similar experience.

Umm, not really. This thread is just about locking and/or hiding discussion threads.
It is better to prevent than to cure, therefore the advices how to avoid (unnecessary) resentment.

Here my opinion explicitly:
Is staff doing poor job overall?
No.
Is locking and/or hiding a poor and problematic method of moderation of discussion threads?
Yes.

Very interesting topic - to describe typical rule breakers and misbehaving rowdies and discuss how to deal with distinct types in a non-violent way - for another thread.