Macros/Keybinds/Autoclickers Survey Community Discussion

Ah, sorry. I was only considering my use case, and because of that forgot to be specific. I'll specify:

One does definitely NOT need macros to be able to for example mine at a safe cobblestone farm in town at the same time, this can easily be done in vanilla minecraft.

I agree, performing complex actions, definitely, you cannot do more than one at a time (unless your ambidextrous or something else weird ), but simple holding actions are easily done on multiple clients without any mods.

I think Tom's referring to tabbing out of the Minecraft client while doing an input. The input will then be held. So if you open five Minecraft clients and go to a stone generator with each, then hold left click with one and alt+tab to the next, let go of left click and hold it again and alt+tab to the next, repeat, repeat, repeat, you'll have five Minecraft clients mining stone. (at least I'm pretty sure this would work; I haven't ever used it myself though)

Ahh, okay, cool, thanks!

Ahh, I see what you meant now. I fully agree with that - though of course it could be done legitimately too, I don't think it is fair if non-plain-AFK-actions are done when you're not in the same room as your computer.

I'll respond to the rest of the thread in a bit, just couldn't keep my curiosity inside when I saw you reply.

This drives me absolutely bonkers.

"Play Your Way" is not a catch-all permission slip to do whatever the heck you please. It is simply a statement that EMC allows the flexibility of personal customization (player settings) in your experience. It's like when people use "the customer is always right" in a literal sense - anyone who's ever worked retail can tell you that's fluffin' garbage. I honestly think this slogan needs to die, because it keeps being abused in this manner.

"Anyone can do it" is also a terrible line of reasoning - anyone can shoplift, slap their mother, or prank call 911, but that does not mean it's okay to do so. Now, I know the point you're trying to make, but unless EMC were to start enforcing / requiring that everyone install a macro mod in order to level the playing field (which you and I know absolutely won't happen), there is going to be a divide between those that can't/won't use them and those that do, and from a gameplay perspective that does provide an advantage to macro users. The point of having such strict regulation in place is to keep that imbalance manageable.

I do not use macros myself (okay, to be fair I don't even play Minecraft these days), but my participation in this discussion was precisely to offset these two specific arguments, ones I have seen come up time and again in macro debates. I've seen a few good arguments in favor, such as preventing carpal tunnel or repetitive stress on the wrists, or to help make complex / boring tasks less arduous, and that's why I don't argue in favor of macros being banned completely. I just wish those in favor would abandon these two particularly bad arguments, since it only serves to weaken your position. Without heavy restrictions and limitations in place, "macro" use easily becomes "botting," and I have no doubt it would be much simpler for Aikar & Krysyy to simply ban the use altogether - credit to them for being willing to have this discussion instead.

As one who does not remember taking part in this poll prior, I will take a few moments to hash over my thoughts concerning this topic now.

1. I currently have about 900 DC of Melon Slices that need to be mostly converted to Melons.
2. The argument about "Play your way" should fall within reason of the parameters set forth in the game. I highly doubt if you walked into Burger King and told them you wanted your Whopper to be a Sirloin Burger with Escargot for spread that they would be able to deliver on "Have it your way".
3. The "Play your way" argument should allow hackers if it is really all encompassing. Not advocating such, just being sarcastic.
4. I realize I am an old-school gamer which hails from the era that pre-dates the common use of microwave ovens. I also realize we are in a microwave society that wants an ultra-photon-wave oven that cooks everything to perfection in a nano-second, because the 2-3 minute meals take up so much time. They should also incorporate Cool-Waves, which can cool down your food to proper eating temp.
5. I also realize I am an Anti-Elytra player, because I feel it has taken away from the initial objective of survival when you can simply fly over the majority of obstacles which make up the game. Having said this, I do have a few, and I have used them once to fly out to my outpost in the frontier, which still took over 4hrs to reach my destination. However, if for some reason Mojang removed the Elytra, I would not shed a tear...Those are for the ghasts who face me.
6. I have been building a road in the frontier for a few years, and will continue to do so until the project is complete. This alone could warrant the acceptance of methods which could potentially save months of time as compared to the overall project. Yes, that is thinking in the overall long-term span of time that it will potentially take to actually complete this task.
7. The speed limit used to be 55mph on the highway / interstates, but so many people drove faster than that, and complained so much so that the speed limit now is listed at 70mph. Yet, if you drive on the highway today and drive only 70mph, you are probably considered old. Most drive at least 5mph over that, and it is not uncommon for speeds in much greater excess than this. The car that passes me at such a great speed often gets to sit in front of me at the next stop light. I applaud their accomplishment. Will there be a petition to raise the speed limit further?

What are the true limits that we must accept? When will we become content to simply play by the rules? We are always trying to create, bend, break, and amend rules that we find to be holding us back, instead of growing to adapt to the obstacles presented unto us. Does this mean click that mouse button until you have generated a growth on your finger that meshes perfectly with your mouse? No. Maybe it should be an indicator to do something else and allow yourself a break. I used to be a major user of Voxelmap and was disheartened when they changed the rules to prevent use of the radar. Not because I wanted to search out mobs from a distance, but because I like the early warning that a mob was headed my way. I like to build in the wild, and it is annoying to be shot off your build. I have also commented often on the need for a /ps difficulty setting of 0 so one could build without the hassle of mobs. I do, however, see how these things would really undermine the whole point of survival. I have adapted to now be more in tune with my surroundings and listen to the sounds more closely, and also pay attention to the subtitles during the darker hours. I am still no fan of skeletons with a 007 exception

One of my favorite analogies to use when in a discussion with others who are on the topic of change, regardless of the real topic, is that of basketball. There is a set standard in basketball that the regulation goal be 10' from the floor / ground. To many this is not really that far, as they simply jump and "dunk" on it quite easily. To others, it could present a daunting task. So my inquiry would be? Should we lower the goal / standard of the goal to accommodate all potential basketball players? If so, what should it be lowered to? 9', 8', 6'? Or maybe it should simply morph into a hole in the ground and we can use sticks to putt the ball in? Or...maybe...just maybe those players should work on their game skills and learn to adapt to the parameters of the game in which they are playing. This is not to say that modifications are not nice, as the three point shot was added at a much later time in the game, and it has made it a much more enjoyable experience overall in terms of strategy, and from a spectator's viewpoint.

So are auto-clickers / macros / keybinds fundamental rule changes, or simply a modification of acceptable practices?

Honestly, I feel I am against the use of such initially, but I also understand the "Faster, Better, Stronger" mentality.

It appears this thread has touched on other areas since I started the above comment so I will add one more quick comment here. I am curious to see what the multiple account rules entail, as I have numerous accounts which I use. I do not, however, use them for economic means in the sense of trying to generate rupees, or generate additional resources. This account is a supporter account which I tend to mine quartz in Utopia as it is easier to do there, and will then take it to my residence on Utopia to store in a chest for my alt to then pick up from that residence and then go use at various residences in SMP2, because this character is way out in the frontier on SMP2. I have at times had them both on at the same time, but use them alternatively as I must ESC out of the one, so that I can enter the other to do something such as pull something out of a vault to put in a chest for the other one. I hope this kind of interaction is not on a chopping block

I applaud the Staff's efforts to split the proverbial frog's hair in regards to this topic, and will support whatever they deem to be the necessary guidelines to administer a fair and just playing field for those in the Empire.

I look forward to what this thread hashes out. Long Live the Empire!

KnightZer0ne
Tempered Outpost Founder

I think it best that people who are arguing their points do so with a full understanding of how the EMC-approved mods work, and what they let people do. I am going to focus on crafting and villager trading, as the other macros seem to be fairly well understood.

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Villager trading macros. I fully concede they make trading easier but I don't agree that they make it faster, nor do they reduce the total number of clicks needed to complete a cycle of trades. Disagreeing with this is fine, but if we are to debate about whether or not they should be allowed, we need to argue about the same thing.

This is a screenshot of the (at the time of this post) EMC-approved villager trading mod being used. To clarify, the only "automated" part of this mod is the moving of items within the GUI.

To make a trade, I must have the items on the left of the arrows. Trades I do not have items for show a white arrow, trades I can complete show a green arrow, and trades that are used up show a red arrow. By clicking a green arrow, one instance of a trade is made. For instance, I could click the "Pumpkin" arrow, and trade eight pumpkin for one emerald.

That is the entire functionality of the mod. Nothing in this mod grants superhuman trading abilities, nor does it make the process measurably faster. It does not allow me to bulk trade, unless I spam click the arrows.

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Crafting macros. Yes, they make things faster and easier. For most items, the crafting book is just as good. For a select few (melon blocks, dispensers...), a crafting macro is overwhelmingly more efficient.

This is a screenshot of the (at the time of this post) EMC-approved crafting mod.

To craft one crafting iteration (one click of an item on a crafting table), I can click the item I wish to make under the text box to the right of my GUI. To craft a stack of items (shift-clicking in a crafting table), I can shift-click the item I wish to craft. If I have a lot of junk in my inventory, the text box has a search function that lets me look up a specific item, or check its recipe if I am unsure what I need.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is all the mod does. I can not "instacraft" thousands of complicated items with one click. If I want stacks upon stacks of melon blocks, I have to drown myself in a sea of melons, fill my inventory with one block stacks of melon block, and spam my mouse while shifting.

bump, well I would assume it is the same as putting a weight on a key, so it should be normal player ability...but still bump

Also, @krysyy, would it be possible to know how many people answered the poll?

I would disagree a bit here. I wouldn't say it's that big of a difference. No matter what item you are crafting you must have all the pieces in your inventory to craft said item. Whether it's clicking 1 button (macro) to craft them or clicking the item in the crafting book, there is almost no difference in time. Sure the crafting book requires 1 extra click but that is minor. The only difference is a macro can craft more than 1 stack in total with a single click where the crafting book is limited to a single stack. This is the only difference and this is what is currently being discussed as far as changing rules, etc.

Thank you for making that form, and opening this discussion!

(1) Personally not sure on this one. I just did a clicks per second test, and somewhat tired me got 6.5 CPS there, which is more than 5, but not that much more. I do know, however, that there are many other people capable of getting much higher CPS speeds. I think we're fine with what it is now, but likely wouldn't complain if it was changed to max. 5 CPS.

(2) I personally don't farm heads (often), but seeing the size of the deco head market, I'm not sure what would be right, as either side has their positives.

(3) What do you mean with "a timed event limit"?

(4) What do you exactly mean with "Automatic clicking while AFK specifically defined to 3 minutes of no HUMAN response time."? (excluding the part that one of course has to reply themselves, not through a macro)

All of the rules dont mess with me apart from changing the limit from 10 clicks/second to 5 clicks/second.
When a shop's selling 1 item at a time and I need a lot of them, I use an autoclicker (while still watching the screen). Will take twice as long if it gets changed.

Also, a lot of people can click over 5clicks/second - IIRC the current limit was put in place based off how fast someone could click for an extended period of time.

I would say 8 minutes, personally

Personally, I build a lot and many times it involves placing a boatload of blocks. Changing the clicks per second limit applies to manual clicking too. It should be a higher number like 8.

I think a lot of people use macros to make the game less tedious. If you're converting concrete, auto fishing, or something else, it would probably be really annoying to have to hold down a mouse button for a long time.

I think the poll was supposed to be uninfluenced by others' opinions- now we're debating and switching sides freely.
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If you're using macros to collect materials it does affect anyone who isn't- you're flooding the market faster than I can supply my own shop, as Aikar explained so well with his example scenario.
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This server is family friendly. I know that term is usually used in terms of what language and such are allowed, but I feel like it should apply to this, too.

I personally don't like downloading things. I'm untrusting of any website that wants to let me install/download/upgrade anything for my computer. I dislike the idea of resource packs. I'm appalled at the idea of downloading software (I don't even know if that's the right word) that changes my user interface, like Otus's example screenshots. Those screenshots do not appear the way Mojang intended for the game to look. I don't see why, especially in the case of the villager trading, you would go to that length. I agree that trading the same thing repeatedly can grow tiresome, but if it takes the same length of time (as so many of you stated), why use the macro at all?

I think part of family friendly is giving everyone a fair shot, and keeping things simple enough that younger players can participate. I get that there's enough reading going on in EMC (chats, stats, etc.) that we're not going to have 3 year olds playing, but I am sure that there are 8 year olds out there who just want to have fun with the rest of us. We should do our best to let them compete fairly with people who are older and more "tech savy". I acknowledge that there are players who are 40+, but we need to keep this family friendly so that even the younger members of the family can participate easily.
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Sure, anyone can use them, but are they really necessary? I get that they're convenient, but are they even accessible to younger audiences? Someone mentioned learning via YouTube, but I can't find the quote. Is YouTube really always accessible to younger audiences? Roaming the internet for information isn't always realistic for our younger members. What often happens is that kids are allowed to use the computer to go to a few approved sites. Maybe in the case of EMC players that would include the Minecraft Wiki and possibly the EMC Wiki, but I doubt it would include roaming YouTube and downloading extra tools to play Minecraft.
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All of this is good stuff. I joined about a month ago, and I have yet to find a way to get a shop set up and have it effectively gain income. You could say to adjust my prices, offer different products, etc., but at this point I have just minimized it to items I don't want around and have decided the best way to hold on to my rupees is to not buy anything at all and just harvest it myself. This whole world of multiplayer Minecraft is 100% new to me- this is my first server. I'm still trying to learn how to attract customers and such, but it feels like everyone goes to malls or their friends or just doesn't shop at all. Reading guides or scouring the forums and wiki for information has gotten me next to no where.

I wish this economy were more about networking than who had the most effective macro, or whatever other plug-ins and such are around.

This post isn't a plea for help, merely a real example of what playing as a new player feels like to me, right now.
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I think that it's fair to let people use the AFK fish farms and have a 3 minute response time to the AFK check.

As for the use of multiple accounts (which I know is for another discussion, but still) it feels unfair because you have to pay for them. Isn't it enough that I payed for the first version of Minecraft? Why should I have to buy a second account to be able to compete in a fun game? I'll table these thoughts until they are being openly discussed, however.

Not going to continue debating the macro usage comments I stated earlier, as I have spoke my mind I feel in a blunt way. I will not lie, I did wake up on the wrong side of the bed , but I still believe there should be some limitations, but not completely banning macros (and as Krysyy has previously pointed out, that is not on the table for discussion)

I'm not trying to outright ban them, but I would like to see some consideration for those of us who aren't using them in how to make the restrictions. I do feel they should be severely limited, so that younger players (and anyone who doesn't want to) doesn't have to give up on building their own empire in this economy.

So what limitations do you propose? I believe the current macro limitations are perfectly fine, despite what I might have stated earlier. As for autoclicking, I believe the "you have 3 minutes to respond to a AFK check" is perfectly acceptable/ fair.