[Suggestion] EMC Bill of Rights

Discussion in 'Suggestion Box Archives' started by Windylava, Jun 17, 2016.


Should EMC have a Bill of rights for the EMC members

Yes 46 vote(s) 26.0%
No 131 vote(s) 74.0%
  1. I understood the context of your post - I wasn't meaning the reply directly to you, but in general of the thread.
    We3_Nub, Sparticals and OriginalScuf like this.
  2. I'm happy that you see that so.
    You're quite right ... I hope.
    But if you read this thread you'll see that many people do not know that (yet).
    Or they have had experiences, but the question is when in the past, so they might not be relevant any more.

    So they would like it to be written in the wiki for at least three reasons:
    • for themselves as a kind of assurance that we really already have the rights
    • for new members to be able to see it and know some of their rights right away
    • for the staff to read it any time they need a reminder that we really (already) have the rights
    It's not about that, not at all.
    I think many people voted no because they thought it is something along that "be able to insult each other" or "have debates about anything".

    Thank you.
    The desire is to go one step further there: protected freedom of speech while staying within forum rules.

    The proposal is to assure through mentioning in the wiki, that every member has some elementary rights as member of the community.

    Not really. (Especially not me.)
    Who expressed that desire and where? Quote please.

    Not necessarily.
    Some members did express distinct fears which would imply that there is something wrong, but the request is to remove the fears through adequate statements in the wiki. Be it a "bill of rights" or "mission statement" from you or "mission statement regarding the community" or all of it.

    To assure that the members have some basic rights and are not being completely at the mercy of the staff.
    This assurance needs to come out of your free will and commitment, Aikar.

    Even if currently there really are no such problems, this commitment / assurance will surely show both current and new / potential members that EMC truly stands out among SMP servers, and that members can feel safe and protected.

    Again, not really. Some rules or policies in applying rules were mentioned, but that's not the focus.

    The focus are the rights - to get written in the wiki what, as crystaldragon13 believes, we already have, just not yet "white on black".
    - mission statement from you, Aikar
    - your view of the community and/or mission statement regarding the community
    - elementary members' righte
    Uber_Corq likes this.
  3. - That's at least what I got from the OP. The way SSRC described it and what I drew from it was that he felt restricted when he wanted to post something. That he had to think, think again, and triple think each post.

    - I'm not really the one who said that but I can see how quoting someone can be confusing. :p
  4. -Already discussed the mission statement, which is something we added rather recently and doesn't NEED to be there at all. I just moved things from one area to the other.
    -Um, what? The community is a community. I'm failing to see the point behind this statement.
    -Stop using the word 'rights'. That's not what this is. The rules are in place to tell you what you cannot do. Telling what you CAN do is redundant.
    We3_Nub, Acemox2k, MrsWishes and 6 others like this.
  5. This is a very good idea, I'll give it that, but the fact that we have rules in the server and you're wanting to add what you CAN do is a little bit of overkill. Think about the new players, some being pretty young, that don't know what a Bill of Rights is. Maybe the new players are being bombarded with the amount of do's and don'ts that this will add in, and will simply leave. I'd say we stick with the rules we have now, as no other server I've been on has a Bill of Rights, yet still functions properly. That's what's happening here. The staff take care of the server pretty well without said Bill of Rights, and it actually is going to work better than one. The staff would firstly be bombarded now because of "Freedom of Speech" amendment. If you were to speak out about religion, because it'd be a free topic if this gets put in place, other players would get offended by said religion, and would start fights on that thread until it's locked or taken down. Not to mention staff may also get offended by some posts, and they wouldn't have the power to take it down because it'd be "Free speech" right infringement. This is Minecraft, a game, ingame rules already set, we're not a growing nation or government, we're a gaming community.We really don't need this.

    TL;DR, I like the idea, but it really wouldn't work out for new players or staff, let alone everyone else who love the server the way it is.
  6. People tend to have a fear of any person or organization that has power over them. In my opinion, this has been caused by the actions of organizations and people with power over the course of human history. No matter how trustworthy, friendly, or agreeable a person in power is, people will be afraid of them. And not just necessarily of them, but of what they are able to do.

    This fear has spilled over into the rest of our lives, where now we not only fear our government, we fear the people and institutions that are supposed to be helping us. It seems to me that this fear has begun to take hold of members of this wonderful Empire.

    I understand this fear; we all do. Everyone feels it, no matter where you live in the world. I believe this is why some EMC members are calling for a Bill of Rights. I believe this is why so many threads have been created over the past year that discuss the fear people have of staff.

    “Just trust the staff” some people say. “Just PM Krysyy” is the other common phrase. However, it is difficult for people to live in a world where they can’t trust a government that is supposed to support them, and then join an online community where they are supposed to just trust the moderators and owner. I am not saying that Aikar and Krysyy are untrustworthy. In fact, they always have my full support. But some people need more than “Just trust them.”

    I believe what many are looking for is not necessarily a Bill of Rights, but some sort of guarantee that they will be protected. While I do not believe that a Bill of Rights is necessary, I believe that a revamped Mission Statement is not too much to ask for. We are a growing community, and we have overcome the struggles of the past. I believe that a new Mission Statement could help bring this community closer together. It could include the goals of the server owner, staff, and community. And I believe we should make it the center point of this server.

    Minecraft is just a game. Mojang is just a company that makes the game to make money. This is not what EMC is though. We are a community, a living and breathing people. EMC is more than a game to all of us. Many people escape to EMC, a place where they can be accepted for who they are. No matter your opinion, no matter your situation, no matter who you are, we will accept you. We will hear what you have to say. Not everyone may agree, but that’s what makes our community amazing. We can disagree and still support one another through tough times.

    Lastly, I would like to congratulate both MM and SSRC. I hope that despite the criticisms and negativity of this thread, both of you will continue to work to make this server a better place. Thank you for your efforts to improve our server. And thank you to Krysyy, who did not just dismiss this idea out of hand, but listened and heard what everyone had to say. Discussions and thread such as this one are what makes our community grow and improves our relationships with both each other and the staff.
  7. That Mission Statement is only a few months old, if that. What do you propose it be revamped with?
    Please type out what you think it should say and I can review.

    (Also thank you for making the first real movement out of the perpetual circle we were in)
    We3_Nub, DWmom, M4ster_M1ner and 3 others like this.
  8. It's more about seeing a written commitment and mentioning of protection of members.

    But it wouldn't.
    Free speech does not mean you can ignore forum rules.
    It just means guarantee for no repression, for no negative consequences from the staff based on your opinion.

    If it would be a personal attack or foul language, staff would be required to take it down because it breaks forum rules.
    If staff is offended just because people tell them that something they did was not right, then, well, that's the essence of it, they would need to answer it same as any other member and not use their moderator power to take it down.

    Many pages back I've asked people to provide comprehensible examples of how mentioning protection of members' rights would bring more problems then good. So far no one has.

    It is not only because of our RL experiences, it is also because of our EMC experiences, and because of understanding of relevant aspects of human psychology and sociology.

    Thank you, thank you thank you!

    At last someone that really understands!
    JDHallows and 607 like this.
  9. Current Mission Statement
    Our mission is to have fun and create lasting memories on Empire Minecraft. There are numerous ways to play, whether you want to focus on mob hunting, Frontier exploration, being a major player in the economy, etc. On EMC, you get to Play Your Way! Our rules are in place so that everyone can enjoy their time on the Empire. Do your best to follow these rules and we can all focus on having FUN, like we're meant to.

    Draft for new Mission Statement
    Our mission is to facilitate a friendly environment where players of all backgrounds and beliefs can have fun in a community of players. We want to provide players with a safe in-game environment where they can creatively express themselves without fear of being griefed. Our server goal to “Play Your Way” is used to empower players so they can have fun playing in the way they want to. There are numerous ways to play, whether you want to focus on mob hunting, Frontier exploration, being a major player in the economy, etc. We want our players to have fun and create lasting memories on Empire Minecraft. Our rules are in place so that everyone can enjoy their time on the Empire. Do your best to follow these rules and we can all focus on having FUN, like we're meant to.

    This is obviously an early draft, and only my first one. However I am hoping that the community as a whole can work together to create and revise a mission statement. I truly believe that a new and more comprehensive mission statement will make EMC a stronger community. Any input and edits to my draft are encouraged from everyone, both players and staff.

    P.S. I have been watching this thread from the very beginning. However, I have not yet voted and I have not commented until today. I did not want to prematurely criticize or support this idea until both the OP and staff gave input. I did not want to dismiss this idea out of hand as others have done in this thread. When a person who has played on this server for 4 years has to create a thread at 2 am to "Demand a Bill of Rights" we should give them the respect to listen to what they have to say. And when somebody like MM, who is no doubt a financial powerhouse on the server, chooses to spend his free time to support the idea, even when everyone is telling him he is crazy, it is important to know that there is a reason why.

    So thank you Krysyy for giving these two members your time and consideration, and you too Aikar, even when people on this thread were asking for it to be closed. (It should be noted that the reason this thread was created was because the OP felt threads were being prematurely closed and censored [edit:] and we have players asking for it to be closed.)
  10. A few changes needed, but overall I can work with this.
    We3_Nub, SSRCMegaMall, 607 and 5 others like this.
  11. I suggest -
    - to keep the mission statement short, to put just essential statements into it, and to put explanations and clarifications in their own paragraphs.
    - to make it clear that it is the mission statement of the owner of EMC, of the service provider, to avoid potential misunderstandings
    - to poll the community for (further) ideas and contributions and to give a reasonable time frame for discussions
    - to make new thread(s) for discussion(s)

    Perhaps it is easier to first collect, sort and identify the ideas for the mission statement and then work on the wording.

    A collection of ideas - all of those are not (only) my own ideas, so do not read this just as "what MM would like" - not in a particular order
    - mission of EMC, of the service provider
    - facilitate in-game environment / MC servers
    - facilitate forum
    - players of any age, nationality, backgrounds and beliefs
    - players are members of the EMC community
    - have fun playing and participating
    - freely and creatively express themselves within in-game and forum rules (assure "freedom of speech" within forum rules)
    - contribute to the community
    - suggestions, response to suggestions
    - friendliness
    - safety
    - protect privacy
    - protect underage
    - politeness
    - good manners, etiquette
    - not pay-to-win
    - strive to protect from any kind of griefing
    - play your way
    - primarily survival multiplayer, PvE, Non-PvP
    - comprehensible, reasonable rules framework
    - considerate, responsive, accountable and friendly staff
    - considerate, positive moderation
    - protection from abuse or misuse of staff power
    - community manager role reports to the community (Krysyy has several roles, not only CM - like chief editor, chief moderator, chief of staff, etc., etc. and chief of almost everything ;))
    - protected in-game economy that follows the needs of the community (no tweaking of the economy, not a set-up economy game, no RL economic interests)

    ... anything else?

    Please note
    - not all of those ideas need to go into the (narrow, primary) mission statement. Perhaps there can be a short, primary mission statement with the most important parts and an additional second part. It would be good to have polls and see what is more important to the community and what less important or unwanted.

    - perhaps some of the ideas may seem strange to you at first, but most of them are based on already written statements, sometimes hidden on the EMC webpages and in the forum, and most are, according to crystaldragon13 and some other members, something that we already have

    - It's solely Aikars' choice as service provider to choose what goes into his mission statement and how, and what doesn't. This is important.

    @JDHallows: Big thank you! - And also thanks, but don't overestimate my influence in the EMC economy :)

    @Aikar and Krysyy: Big thank you for all of your commitment to the EMC community!
  12. We aren't looking to make this an essay. Summarize your points into a paragraph, like jdhallows did, and I can work from there. This isn't a policy change, it's just a rewording of one paragraph on the rules page. It doesn't need to be an act of Congress.
  13. Mission statements are meant to be fairly short. In fact the one we have is long for a mission statement. Not necessarily a horrible thing, but it needs said. (Conscise and understandable is preferred to verbose and contract-like)
  14. lol miner. It needs to be short, and this is what we need to put into it- EVERYTHING!
    607 and M4ster_M1ner like this.
  15. That's just a collection of ideas. I'm not sure which of them to put in the short, primary mission statement. I can help wording it when it is clear which are of primary interest and shall be mentioned. I probably also missed some ... ?

    We can create a poll and see what people think if this can help Aikar and Krysyy choose.

    It is important to keep in mind that this is not "our" mission statement because we are not the service provider.
    It is just a suggestion and help for Aikar and Krysyy.
    In the end it shall be Aikars official mission statement as service provider.

    I don't hide that I'd like to see all of that somewhere in the wiki, but not necessarily in the "short" mission statement.

    We can somewhat guess what you would see as a policy change, but we can not know until we have written policies.
    The basic desire of this thread is to get written "what we already have" - and to have assured freedom of speech to question and discuss rules, policies and staff actions. From your and Aikars recent postings I guess that wouldn't be a policy change. Or would it?
  16. A mission statement isn't a written policy though. A mission statement is simply what we 'aim' to do/accomplish. The EMC written policies are the rules, which are written out quite clearly and have been for some time, in addition to the staff guide, which is written out more like a series of procedures for the staff to see and follow.
  17. So, what points / ideas would you like to have in the mission statement?

    Plus not yet written customs / parts, plus not yet written recent changes, plus the not yet written "positive rules" that we already have.
    But I'd say let's leave that for later. Official service providers mission statement first.
  18. (short!) Offtopic comment, sorry.

    I un-watched the thread, I did read several comments and well... So this is still a thing.. Why put all this time and energy into something which is cosmetic in the first place? People talk community and all that, but in all honesty: how many players have actually read the rules? How many new players are going to do so?

    Sorry for being negative: but I see a lot of energy spend on something which will have zero to none impact on EMC in its current form.

    Why this comment? I'll tell you...

    In another thread Chickeneer has asked for input on an achievement interface. You know: leaderbords and all, something which many players have been asking for? I'd say if you really want to help making things better for EMC then here's your chance.

    Yet surprise, surprise: all Chickeneer got so far is one useful comment in that thread so far. Seems some people are more concerned about theoretical problems which don't even concern playing the game than actually putting energy into something which would leave an impact.

    Sorry guys, I don't get it. Shouldn't the way we play the game be our top concern here?

    </offtopic comment>
  19. Getting something written down is not just cosmetic. It's actually a big thing - especially after the more or less recent changes. Don't underestimate this, I'm quite sure it will, actually, it already has quite some impact.
    Plus freedom of speech if we get it in written form - not a small thing.
    (Perhaps you're not fully aware of EMC's past policies.)

    Some will read them in advance, some will later and some never - and some will find out the hard way.
    I admit that I have a kind of special love for players like you Shell, and like me, who first read the rules - I think we're doing that better than others. ;)
  20. What's currently there. Our mission is to have fun and create lasting memories. Additional stuff can be added of course, but a mission is the overarching goal of the server, in this case everything comes back to having FUN.
    We3_Nub and ShelLuser like this.