Mistakes and sanity

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by M4ster_M1ner, Jan 22, 2013.

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  1. Oh yes, that is the best idea you've ever had:
    I get the feeling that this plan of yours isn't going to last very long, coffee...
  2. Ignoramoose, I have the impression that I did not really get my point across. You're quoting me and explaining as if I had written about the opposite of what I think I did. But let's not waste time on details.

    My opinion differs here. There is always need for discussion, adjustment and improvement. A community needs a life, needs to evolve. Why should one restrict that?

    Can you explain who is "we" and in what relation is "we" to the community?

    This is a misunderstanding. In my opinion, stealing is very well "bannable."
    Compare how it is bannable in RL.

    My opinion is that the expression of human nature here in the community will not differ a lot from that in RL. So things are not black and white, and how you deal with people has influence on the whole community. If you want a community to develop in a positive way, you need to respect that. It is not just an accident that modern, advanced communities and societies developed to be open, as in "open society."

    Also a thing that, IMO, needs to be respected is that a good deal of members here are underage and not really aware of what they are doing. For some of them this is the first on-line community they re part of. What will they learn here? How do people interact, what is the social and economic structure here?

    My vote is for open, thoughtful and gentle handling of offenses and punishments - towards a healthy, open community - as far as possible.

    How much community would you like today?
    Lasluin likes this.
  3. What you state here is true and guess what? We believe the same thing.

    Taking advantage of a shop sign however is equivalent to scheming a robbery. You calculate that you are slowly draining rupees and you sit there for a long time buying and reselling to the sign. In any real life court, it would be noted as pre-meditated.

    Stealing an apple or something when it falls on the ground is not something that we are asked to take care of on a regular basis, though if it did i am sure that the judgement would be to make sure the apple was simply returned.

    We never oversimplified and said stealing = ban. In fact, at every moment we will tell you that every report is separate and we evaluate each one on individual merits.
    M4nic_M1ner likes this.
  4. and 3. the community.
    Perhaps one can think of it in this way: every member here is your playmate you do care about on some level.

    Where? Who is without sin? :)
    Find me one perfect person and the world will change ;)

    Well, I think being part of an on-line community where people interact with each other is also part (and can be an important part) of RL. You can't really say that you can simply turn the computer off and that all of this has no further meaning.
    MR2R2M likes this.
  5. Did you ever learn about the Salem Witch Trials? How did 'open society' benefit then? It didn't. Over time the world has evolved to a less open state in order to guarantee and (normally) fair chance for any and every criminal.

    Me banning joeshmoe on smp5 only affects you if you are buying goods from joeschmoe's shop. Bans do not affect the entire community. In fact, I'd like you to try an exercise. If bans affect you so much, try naming every person that was banned yesterday, 1/21/2013. My guess is that you can't because they didn't affect you.

    I frankly don't care if they are underage or not. When you join the server you acknowledge a set of rules that you will follow. You are warned that breaking any of these rules will result in a banning from the server. It doesn't matter if you are 12 or 21. Rules are RULES. If they want to take part in the social and economic structure on the server then they need to follow the rules.

    So you want the community to decide someone's fate or do you want us to share what each player did?
    Frankly, neither is going to happen. The community is biased towards their own profit and a fair judgement would become impossible. As for sharing details of bans with the community, that's a violation of their privacy. If they feel the need to tell you, we arent going to stop them, but we will not reveal events that go on behind the scenes, much like Judge will never whip out a guy's personal file and discuss it with you because you are a "concerned citizen".

    I love the community on this server. I wouldn't change it for the world.
    ZBSDKryten likes this.
  6. As said before, we've allowed generic input from the community regarding how bans are handled. http://empireminecraft.com/threads/results-emc-rule-enforcement.17614/ There was and still is discussion and adjustments were made. However, individual cases will never be discussed (I'll cover in your direct question below).

    "We" is the staff. The people who enforce the rules on behalf of the community, and run the server.

    What you don't realize is it isn't black and white on our end. If a /report is made, there's not some immediate action on it. We look to see what the player has done and investigate ourselves. Generally players are offered the opportunity to make things right.

    You're saying that modern, advanced communities are open, but do you really believe that? Do jurors openly discuss their opinions on a ruling in court - NO. A verdict is rendered by the jury IN PRIVATE and even still, THE JUDGE decides the punishment based on precedent. Citizens don't get to decide the punishment, and the ones who get to decide guilt do so in PRIVATE.

    Once again that is your opinion, but it does help me point out a fact of discussing punishments.

    There's going to be many sides to what people see as a fair punishment if opened to discussion. Some may have a vested interest in these players who were banned, would see it that they should get a lesser punishment. Do you imagine the person that was taken advantage of feels the same way?

    Just as in real life, there's a reason for a professional (judge) to decide the ruling. Their specialized knowledge lets them make a fair and just decision based on precedent, and to keep temper out of it.

    Secondly, this community does not treat different ages any differently than others. Everyone is held on equal ground. It's not acceptable for an 8 year old to steal, just the same as a 25 year old, considering the effect. If the player is young you expect us to say, "Oh sorry [Player Stolen From] but that kid was young and didn't know what he was doing, so you're just out 400k"? It's clear from their actions they knew exactly what they were doing, and thus they got the deserved punishment.

    The overall point is everyone is on equal footing here. Going to pull out a name drop - but JackBiggin is a respected member of the community, acts mature, and is 15. Its a choice to act mature, and its a choice to commit an action. As far as what they will learn - they will learn that everyone is treated equally, and that crimes will be punished, regardless of whom committed them.
  7. I really did not know the people that did that well and I don't know what exactly happened.
    I think they were rather new members and I have impression that they are well under age.
    So I'm not really involved and perhaps permanent ban is the best solution in this incident.

    But, it is dangerous to think to "know" what an other person was / is thinking and feeling.
    Especially with kids, especially on-line...
    I think being gentle is seldom a mistake, being harsh almost always.

    I was stalked and griefed on Saturday by 3 players. One of them got 1-day ban, and I think that was just the adequate punishment. He came today, has apologized and has compensated the damage. No need to be harsh.
  8. Stealing all my thunder :(
    PandasEatRamen likes this.
  9. We don't think we 'know' what they are thinking. In most cases we do know. Chat logs do that for us.
    We are very gentle when we handle situations until someone lies to us or becomes hostile.
    M4nic_M1ner likes this.
  10. I've overflew the Wikipedia article on it, and I don't get your point here. Falsely accusing and framing or scapegoating can happen about in any system.
    I think of open community as in -> open society.
    How would authoritarian system help the accused in Salem Witch Trials?
    I do not think an authoritarian system can really work well in a long term.

    Ban is expelling from the community and i think it is kind of obvious that it affects the community.
    This can be in a positive and in a negative way. When seeing that many members are being banned,
    I'm asking myself what is wrong, where are the problems, is this the optimal practice?
    This is how it affects me.

    Well ... idk... kids are treated differently in RL.
    I guess opinions about that change with age. From being a kid, through not being a kid to being a parent and grandparent...

    - Openly post information about intentions and general direction, perhaps even something like a statute. At the moment, there are several statements from the staff (usually presenting themselves as "we" ... Is that the staff of Kalland Labs?) dispersed through the forum about diverse, sometimes conflicting intentions.

    - Always post all the rules and decisions together with an explanation of the rules, explanation of the reason and intentions behind the rules and decisions. Of course, there is no need to explain the obvious, no need to explain "no stealing" etc.

    - Post summaries of bans and reasons (after removing private information), so that the whole community can get an insight, learn, check and know what is happening.

    - Post and explain the decisions so that the people in power can be made / are accountable to the community - if they are acting on behalf of the community.

    - There is probably no need to discuss every action and every ban (contrary to RL), but give any banned player the possibility to present her/his case to the community.

    - Give the community an opportunity to know what is happening and to check actions of the people in power.

    He will have to explain his ruling, write down the reasons / grounds and this will be published.

    I'm not saying that the moderators are not doing a good job. But, I'd sometimes like to check. Like in RL.

    Bottom line: are the moderators acting on behalf of the community? Are they accountable to the community? Can the community check their decisions?
  11. Nothing will be without mistakes. That rule number something in life. Get over it.

    That kid gets aggressive over everything that's against him - he got my thread (which was a friendly debate) locked because he was flapping his gums about he is right and he doesn't need reasons as to why he is.
    jkjkjk182 likes this.
  12. I'll answer to your posts once you finish the exercise I wanted you to do.

    PandasEatRamen, Pab10S and AlexChance like this.
  13. What is wrong is there will always be rulebreakers / cheats / etc. There's always going to be people trying to get around the system and it just so happens that it comes in groups.

    They aren't here.

    I've numbered the posts to answer them easier.
    1 - We do. Players know the upcoming updates, the rules, and the terms of service (all on this site).

    2- The explanations of the rules are literally in the guide. A player was banned for stealing - they were stealing / banned for griefing, they were griefing. I'm not sure what you're looking for as far as an explanation of the rules outside of the guide.

    3- /p info. You can see the playername and ban reason. We aren't going to give out details on how (as it will lead to people trying to beat the system). As far as an insight - without sounding too blunt "do you need an insight on how not to grief / steal?". I feel like several of the above questions relate back to a theme that you want to know more about the rules - yet you say that the obvious need not be explained. The rules in their very nature are obvious.

    4, 5, 6 - To be frank once again - the staff upholds the rules on behalf of the community. We are part of the community. At the same time staff (more importantly ICC and Justinguy), ARE NOT accountable to the community directly. Staff as a whole are accountable to ICC and Justinguy, and it's their business to run. If they wanted to make all the wild extreme hardcore, that's their choice (not saying its ever going to happen). Granted - I'm sure the community would be upset / supporters would leave - but its still their choice.

    All of the staff make the choices they do because they believe it's what's best for the community. We talk amongst ourselves about bans and get second opinions - discuss updates and changes. If there's a need for community input, we ask for it, but that's not always the case.

    As Aikar said once, and almost every programmer will tell you: there's a reason why programmers write the programs and designers take general input but overall design the page. It comes down to that there is always going to be a group of people "more knowledgeable" about the remedy to the situation. You pay a web designer to make a website "pop" / be catchy / look good, and it completely defeats the purpose when you don't give them the ability to do so.

    I believe my answer to 4,5,6 pretty much answers that. In the short version - no. The staff were all picked because we were deemed by the owners to be responsible and just individuals. Players choose to play here because they like the way the servers are run. That being said, the staff are truly accountable to only ICC / Justin / each other. ICC / Justin are accountable only to themselves. In the end, it's up to them on how they want the server to be run - and we all play here because they have done such a good job with those choices.
    M4nic_M1ner likes this.
  14. Wow, this has been the thread of wall o' texts. I was going to read through this thread but I am too lazy.
  15. When I started I saw a bug like this, I abused like 7k out of it.. later that day the owner came on and I felt like bad after he noticed so.. I gave him the rupees and items back.

    I wouldn't be able to live with such guilt
    D:
  16. Honestly... oh well. I pretty much see the point M4nic_M1ner is trying to explain but somewhere, the discussion has got lost in stupid, unimportant details.

    He is basically asking for human treatment, I don't see why there needs to be so much energy spent in debating that. I was not going to step out here, but reading that bans are handled gently, given my personal experience, is simply unacceptable for me. And I don't want to get deeper as I can only speak for that single situation I lived and only two people were involved so I shouldn't judge the whole community and staff or even that person who might have had a real bad day and I paid for it, but it took me a while to convince myself of all this, not take it personal and get over it. This is bringing it back, right, so I have to let it out this way.

    And I'm somewhat an adult, I can only imagine how it could feel for a teenager or a kid, either if they deserved it or not.

    I'm not saying people should not be banned because of their feelings, I'm just saying that, as everyone here has admitted, things are not a, b or c and some things could perfectly be revised, it would be good and even necessary, not just in a poll, and not only regarding how hard to punish bad players. It's people we are talking about, not avatars, and sometimes here we seem to forget how to treat people as if we were face to face.
    M4nic_M1ner and SoulPunisher like this.
  17. I would never even try that... I want my ban record to be clean for as long as I can keep it clean, which is hopefully forever. I've been kicked twice, one by d1223m because I grabbed hold of my keyboard and spammed when falling off my chair, the second was by SYSTEM because...I don't know why...I either forgot or SYSTEM was messed up even then...
    d1223m's was fair. I know that it was his job to do that, and I respect that, because he also gave me help all the times I needed it when I was a noob. That, to me, is human treatment. Help, and doing a duty that needed to be done.
    jkjkjk182 likes this.
  18. I would like to say that pav has been buying a lot form me and I always miss a good shopper, i think a few got roped into this but I do not know all the facts.
  19. :D
  20. ?
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