Mistakes and sanity

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by M4ster_M1ner, Jan 22, 2013.

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  1. Hello there,
    I'd try to help with the understanding of abuse of shop mistakes or generally mistakes of others.

    If someone abuses an obvious mistake of another (like, but not limited to typos
    and mistakes on a chest-shop sign) and causes harm or damage, this is clearly
    an offense.

    When buying or selling, the usual rule is to see if the price is in the range
    between the half and the double market price.

    If it is, you don't need to ask before buying or selling.

    Example: if the current market price is about 50r per diamond, and you see
    a shop sign that is buying for more than 2 x 50 = 100r or selling for less
    than 50 / 2 = 25r, than you must not use it and you should contact the shop
    owner, inform her/him and ask before buying and/or selling.

    For the sake of sanity and community life, punishments for (such)
    offenses have to be adequate to the severity of the offense.

    1) Offender should be given opportunity to apologize, repair the damage and make clear she/he will not to do it again.

    2) Offender should be given opportunity to pay adequate fine, limited by about the half (lower limit) and the double amount of the damage (upper limit). (Example: made 3.000r from shop mistake -> fine between 1.500 and 6.000r). The moderator(s) judging it choses the height.

    3) If not paying the fine, there should be adequate sentence, perhaps like
    hieght of the fine / 1000r in days (6 days ban for 6000r)

    Please do not apply drastic punishments (permanent ban / life sentence)
    except for major offenses.

    Excluding a member from a community is a potentially dangerous and highly sensible act that should be discussed by the community and not hidden from it and decided through a patronizing instance.

    Please keep this community healthy and sane!
    PandasEatRamen likes this.
  2. I'd just like to throw in that a while ago, taking advantage of a player shop wouldn't get you tempbanned/permbanned so it must have been recently changed. I applaud it, too.

    Maybe just returning the rupees for the offending player is enough, but I still don't mind too much if it's a permaban - even if it is a bit strict. Taking advantage of someones mistake is just bad and dirty IMO.
  3. Seeing as you do not have all details regarding the incident that prompted you to make this post, I do not feel that you are qualified to pass judgement on whether or not someone should or should not be banned. That is a moderator's job and you are not designated as one.

    EDIT: I apologize for the blunt nature of my message, but I have had one too many messages today regarding what we should/should not do regarding people and I am done reading them. I take my orders from Icecreamcow, so if you have a problem with how I handle a situation, take it up with him. (hint: he dislikes people that take advantage of others)
    ob1bob69, Maxarias, AzRicer and 5 others like this.
  4. As far as I'm aware, with the recent incidents, a staff member seeming reversed the transactions (refunded the person) after banning the person (which allowed them to appeal). I personally think that was the right thing to do - although at the end of the day, we don't know everything that happened.
  5. I should have done something when I hired ____________ to check for bugs in signs at 509 and then they abused one and got like 28k from it.

    Anyways I got the rupees back but It was still a slap in the face
  6. Yes I think it has, There was the ban appeal thread a few moments ago for one of the offenders who scammed the person from earlier today/yesterday (depending on your timezone), IcecreamCow stated that it's taking advantage of another person, error or not.

    Honestly to me, it's somewhat like stealing. Which is a bannable offense. You're taking advantage of someone instead of alerting them of the error.
    Maxarias likes this.
  7. Correction: it IS stealing. Taking a player's rupees without something in return is stealing if not warranted by the player.
    These incidents fall under Rule Two of the Empire.

    EDIT: Found Miriam Webster definition.
    : to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as a habitual or regular practice
  8. Something tells me that no one would make a store that would drain themselves of rupees on purpose, thus its a bug, and those who exploit said bug should face the consequences.
    coffee_bullet likes this.
  9. Yes it is, and it should not remain without action / punishment / fine.

    I don't think so. An offense shall be fined / punished adequalty.

    It is far far too harsh.
    I'm convinced that any too harsh punishment is far worse then too small punishment.
    It is bad 3 times: for the punished person, for the punisher and for the community.

    My posting is of general nature and not in any way addressing the concrete incident that prompted it,
    except for a call for adequate and human punishment. I do not know the details and I'm not suggesting
    that permanent ban is nor is not adequate.

    I am clearly not judging anyone specific here.
    I'm writing about what offenses and punishment mean for a community and the sanity of a community.

    This is a very important topic, and I think it deserves a separate thread.
    I assume you're not trying to silence me or anyone from posting an opinion or suggestion and participating in the community life.

    It's understandable :) ... accepted of course
  10. As for this; yes, banning a member is a "big" thing however I'd like to point out that a LOT of people are permabanned in one day alone so going to the community to decide their fate would just be too demanding. I think that's what you're talking about, if it's not correct me.

    From what I understand, our mods are picked to be the perfect people for the job. Their good judgement and sense of justice is one of those really important characteristics that make our staff team up, so I don't know about you but I feel that most of their rules and punishments have been thought out, planned and picked carefully.

    For these types of situations, I think that it's a good decision that they made (changing the punishment). And if not, then reverting it would be easy enough.
    I'm also assuming that this is one of those cases where a ban is most likely lifted with an appeal eventually.

    I don't think that the community should have an input into who is banned and for how long. We have /report and that's perfect.

    This is from a players point of view, so I have little knowledge of how these punishments/appeal boundaries/rules are established, so just look at this as on opinion. :)
  11. Well, you were quick to the point.
  12. A permaban is not too harsh for people that steal so why would it be too harsh for people that steal through a shop sign error?
    AlexChance and kevdudeman like this.
  13. I have had a few ppl do this to me in the past buy and selling back to me stone, i was in the wild and could do nothing about it. When I realised what was happening I banned the person from my res, he complained and I told him why he agreed to pay me back what he took which was around 10k.

    I unbanned him but had little to do with him after that, someone else done the same thing before him on another item and again they paid it back.

    Although I was not sure on the exact amounts, a figure was agreed and they paid.

    I opened a shop on someone else's lot who was looking to have several little shops there. One person who got perms desided to rob the shops again they paid back an amount to me.

    The problem is with all of this it leave's a bad taste in your mouth, you feel that ppl have taken advantage of your good nature.

    I do agree sometimes our decisions can be harsh but sometimes that is what is called for.

    Eg' ppl 1 takes advantage and takes 1 apple ppl 2 sees the same error and take them all.

    Who is more guilty ppl 1 or ppl!!

    They both took something that did not belong to them i.e = stealing

    Stealing is a ban-able offence, so then how long should it be for, punishment is needed and I do think a ban of some kind.

    I like M4nic's point of return payment and compensation, how ever this would not be easy for the moderators to manage. It would be up to the shop owner to seek this from the culprit and only if payment was not met would the moderator be informed.

    However in addition to this I do think that some kind of ban would be advantages although not necessarily a perm ban.

    I have heard of something where a jail was set up on a server where an offender would have to server a sentence if they broke the rules. They could not go afk but would have to be active by walking around or doing something. This would be for so many hours or even days until they served there sentence. there chat was also limited with other players.

    I think after doing a stretch in something like this would be good. My thought would be that they would have to break cobble for the person they stole from in a jail type place until there time was up. The victim would recieve this as part payment for damage but when the person got out of jail they would be still required to pay back what they stole.

    This would obviously need programming and maybe a wooden pickaxe just to make it a little harder.

    I am sure other ppl might have idea's on this, I would like to hear them.

  14. You ninja'd me in the thread, I didn't see your post until your reply to me. Now I know why it seemed like you were all RAWR in that reply. Sorry.:confused:
  15. So you aren't stating if it's adequate but you are saying that it is too harsh. Looks like you are confusing yourself.

    I am not in any way silencing your opinion but rather attempting for you to understand my point of view and have an intelligent debate about this.
  16. Let me clue you in on how it works.
    -We notice a stealing event.
    -We ban the player to freeze the accounts so the money stops moving between players.
    -We do totals/assess damage done to victim.
    -ICC adjusts rupees back if rupees are involved with clear transactions.
    -Banned players appeal. We listen.Then one of two things happen.
    1. If they tell the truth and don't try to lie or cover up things then they are normally granted a second chance. In the case of stealing rupees, it is decided if a purge will be done or not. (purge = wiping of inventory, res's and rupee balance, player starts as if they were a new player with a second chance book in hand)
    2. If they lie and won't come clean even though we have evidence, they may stay permabanned. In addition a history of offences may lead to staying permabanned.
  17. I wonder if other misstakes by player which than get abused are going to be permbans too? I mean where is the difference in setting up a wrong shop sign and giving someone the wrong permission on a res? Is it going to be insta a ban too than? Just trying to understand if this is the same and if not why.
  18. I still like the idea of hard labour breaking cobble with a stick maybe :D
  19. We havent had any real situations where someone gave the wrong player res permissions. However, if that did happen, i'm sure we would address it once it came to our attention.

    The reason we catch the shop sign flaws is the rupee logs. It might be harder to track res perms.
  20. Hmm okay, I remember there were some similar cases about 3/4 year ago. And the mod answer was always very strict in that case. You are completly responsible for your permissions on your res. Maybe it changed since than. I guess it would be fair in this case.
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