[Suggestion] EMC Bill of Rights

I was gonna be like, bruh... but she ALREADY WROTE IT! then you were all like, bruh, i got this. So now I'm sitting over here and my popcorn has been sitting in that corner for like two days because I wouldn't put that crap in my body

could ya post the link or send me in pm? and MM, how is "make lasting memories, and have FUN" confusing? and this whole thing bout freedom of speech? come on dude, we already have that, if you keep using it then how is anyone NOT supposed to think that you want to talk bout any subject you please? And why should Krysyy have to report to the community when she knows a lot more than we do, and on top of that i agree with Shell, we shouldnt be using our time arguing over the rules, we should be coming up with ideas and suggesting that will make EMC a more fun place to play on for old and new players to come.

The link is there in Shell's posting, you've quoted it.

I don't think I've ever said that this part is confusing.
I've said "Our" is confusing, because it is not clear who is "we" in that context, as normally the service provider makes a mission statement, so "Our" would mean "Owner's company".

Please read the OP (again). Quite some people don't know that we already have it, so I think it is quite important to add it to the wiki. It is also a great thing to read for new members, they will notice the difference when they compare servers.

Please check -> Help with EMC Mission Statement (1/2)
and -> Help with EMC Mission Statement (2/2)

i noticed but thank you for informing me ^u^

"Our mission is to have fun and create lasting memories on (for/with)* all members of Empire Minecraft."
Boom. Done. Community inclusion added, confusion ended.
*Whichever you think sounds better.

You know who cares about mission statements? A small percentage of parents who research the server to make sure it's a good place for their kids to hang out. And you.
I can promise you almost no one else will care, and if they bother to read a server's "Mission Statement" at all, they'll assume it's corporate toolism at work.

The difference is in-game. On the forums here. Playing with others, participating in this Community you're so adamant about. Not browsing the wiki with a fine-toothed comb trying to turn every little thing into some battle for social justice and reform.

The mission of EMC is to provide safe, moderated, play-your-way ... for the EMC community to have fun and ...

... No need to rush this.

Plus members like SSRC and some of the 25% who do not know yet, or are not yet convinced that we have "what we already have" and would like to see it written in the wiki. The mission statement is one step.

Perhaps the nature of this development, this changes that made that we now "already have" something that we didn't have before, and forces that drive that changes are not obvious for most members. This thread shows that a substantial percentage don't (yet) see significant changes - for various reasons. For them, it is important. If it is only 20% that's more than enough.

Mission statement with community mentioned in it is one important step on the way to get to know ourselves.
I guess it is important for most member that sees EMC as an online community and not just a video game, for members that like and value EMC, especially if they have invested substantial time into it.

Krysyy wrote "Um, what? The community is a community."
Not really assuring ... see?
(And this is not something that is taken out of context in a wrong way, because it matches with other vague statements like "Our ... fun and lasting memories." - without mentioning the community. If that's only a misunderstanding, then it's best to just clear it.)

Once again - if it's only me, SSRC and perhaps two more, than what I'm doing here is waste of time.
Is it only me? Anyone else?

I like EMC as a "private party" as well, and I can also adapt to the majority - on my side in a democratic sense.
But a "private party" is a naturally limited thing and can not grow as a community can.

A "private party" is not a community, and also community is not equal community.
So I'd really like to know what kind of community it is. Free speech yes or no?
Is everyone welcome to openly discuss and criticize rules, policies, decisions and actions of EMC staff before the community? Is everyone protected from misuse of staff power by Aikar?

Is mission of EMC to meet the needs of the EMC community or not?

To community or not to community, that is a question.

Wasn't rushing anything, just trying to take your stick away before that horse you're beating ends up as a jar of Elmer's. Two threads' worth of polls plus this overly long discussion - that began as some disaffected member's demand for "Constitutional Rights" on a private* online entity - is hardly necessary. But of course that's not going to stop you from whatever lofty crusade you're on about, is it?

Only in your mind, M1ner. There is no question at all in mine: Everyone who signs onto these boards, or logs into the servers, is "the community." We are all EMC. I don't need a few extra lines in the wiki to tell me that's so, I simply have to look around, read a thread, sign in, and it's right there plain as day. And if my fur seems a little ruffled over your insistence that some poor souls are so insecure they need an encyclopedia's worth of reassurances to realize it, it's only because I am so very tired of your "We the community" schtick. I won't be so blunt as to say "you don't care about the community," since I don't think you'd constantly do this if that were the case, but you are constantly using that word as alternately a shield and overly-polite bludgeon to cram your own personal social agendas down our throats. Repeatedly, in every thread where you find even the slimmest foothold of an opportunity. It's extraordinarily tiresome.
EMC is not some oppressive totalitarian regime. There is no unjust tyranny here to fight, and your delusion that your efforts to wrangle a few new words into the rules serves some higher purpose is... quixotic at best.

Stop tilting at windmills and go enjoy the game.

*"Private" in this case meaning "as opposed to the government, where constitutional and political ideology are applicable", not as in "exclusionary." It saddens me that I actually feel the need to spell this out for you, lest you confuse the two.

I really don't want to argue, I'd be really happy if we could just find the answers in few postings.
Perhaps it is possible if all focus on the actual questions here starting from essential ones, and not circle around and try any possible discursion to drive the thread away from the topic.

There are very direct and comprehensible questions asked in this thread, and this digressions, like your Kephras, are exactly what gives the impression that the discussion here is going in circles. It is not.
You can check the thread for asked questions and given answers - and the questions that remained unanswered.
And a plethora of misunderstandings.

So, my answers here as short as possible:

Even if could seem so at first, he did not. With a bit of good will and understanding, it is clear that "Const. Rights" is only a comparison and hint at a mentality and some principles, and that it is about EMC, in the first line about granting and protection of FoS.

Not everyone has the same notion of a community and there are many types of communities. We don't need to argue about the notion, just answer the very clear questions which will show what kind it is. (And then no one needs to try to pretend that it is something else. I value your comments, Kephras, because you're making your position quite clear.)

If it is only in my head, then this misunderstanding will be very easy to resolve.
Well is it? Anyone?

Well then it should be quite easy to answer the questions.
Here are they again:

Is everyone welcome to openly discuss and criticize rules, policies, decisions and actions of EMC staff before the community?
It saddens me that I actually feel the need to add: this does not mean to criticize individual staff members in public no matter what, so people, please don't try to make another useless digression!

Is Aikar willing to protect members from misuse of staff power when needed?
It saddens me again to feel the need to add: this does not mean that staff members abuse their power all the time. They do not. Please just leave out unneeded digressions.

-> Help with EMC Mission Statement (1/2)
-> Help with EMC Mission Statement (2/2)

What amuses me? The title of this thread is "We demand", insisting you speak for the community, and you're arguing about the meaning of "Our" in the mission statement.

Oddly enough, I have been reading this thread and from what I've seen here (and elsewhere), this has been affirmed multiple times to be true - as long as the discussion and critique abides by established chat rules. I'm not sure why this is still a question for you.

Only Aikar can answer that definitively, but I believe yes - with the caveat that misuse / abuse would have to be proven beyond doubt. And more likely it'd be Krysyy stepping in. Let's be honest, Aikar's gotten better but PR has never exactly been one of his strengths.

See, this is where I start questioning the validity of anything in this thread. It's pretty clear to me that the issue is not a need for "rights," rule revisions, or some sea-change of social validation, but a need to resolve whatever specific issue prompted SSRC to create this thread in the first place. Now, I stand by my initial statement - it's not my business and I have no desire to get involved in it - but whatever happened that made him feel like his "rights" to free speech were being infringed, that's what really needs the attention.
Instead we have twelve pages of... whatever this is, a couple extra words in the rulebook, and your Mission Statement soap-boxing. And since SSRC has chosen instead to take his leave of EMC, it renders that specific need fairly moot.

I went back and was looking for the screen shot of the chat that started all of this and could not find it. Perhaps it was removed or I am mis-remembering where I saw it.

As I recall, the OP made a statement in chat then a moderator made one which disagreed. The moderator then told the OP to stop discussing it in Town chat. Perhaps it was causing upset and had been reported. Perhaps it was upsetting him. I would not have any problem with the incident if the moderator had only told the OP to stop. But he joined in and stated an opposing opinion THEN told OP to stop.

The incident should have been taken to a pm with Krysyy and the moderator. I'm not sure whether she would have seen it this way or not, but I think the problem and resolution I've suggested is a lot simpler than what has gone on in this thread.

Is it possible that you're referring to this thread here?

The poster was JJTheWise who started a discussion over the world 'socialist', where a moderator initially made a comment about it and then requested him to keep the rest out of public chat.

Other than that I totally agree with you: if players feel wronged by a moderator then definitely PM Krysyy.

(rest meant in general:)

Heck: and if you don't know how or don't feel comfortable with it or maybe you feel the urge to rant and rage then you're also free to use my inbox and I'll relay the message for you (while obviously filtering out all the ranting stuff ).

I might even be able to give you another perspective of the whole situation.

And remember: you can easily substitute my inbox for those of one of your friends also. Talking to your friends about something like this and asking them what they think might really help too. But just talk about it...

I dont think there is a child in America that that is unaware of free speech. We have more wanna be lawyers telling their parents how they can and can not be treated as a child in a household situation. Children are quoting their rights in a school classroom. Children are talking back to police officers and telling them that they know their rights, but sadly, as easy as it is for the children to find and study these rights they will not take the time to sit learn them correctly and truly take them to heart. Very few if any of they people in this world who stand tall and say "I know my rights" only know a small portion or a slanted interpretation of the rights.

Also their are ones who decide that they know what the rights mean and will not accept any other interpretation of the letter of the rights and of those, some will impress their will upon others " for the greater good ". Demands to change laws, rules, systems, traditions occur and day to day operations are interrupted in order to address the issues. IRL this can happen over a long period of time and over great areas and cause turmoil to the general population. This can turn to protests, loss of morals and general frustration on all parts displayed in a variety of ways.

If I may suggest, not so much an overhaul, or change in the operation of krysyys role or that of staff or of operations but..

perhaps a sort of mentoring program for the new players. I know, I know, but this whole thing seems to be about new players knowing their rights. If a new player gets a partner to pal around with (so to speak) perhaps their wont be confusion issues. A new player would have a known, designated person to hit up with a problem or issue or question. Questions like " how do I get out of the waste?", "I have a serious problem, how do i get it fixed?"

We all welcome new players (most of us) but if a new player were to have a name, not just "---STAFF---" or "---MODERATOR---" they may feel a little more confident voicing their concern if its the same person that they can look to for help/info if they are playing along side this person. This would be a volunteer program that the community would participate in it and volunteers would have to be approved by krysyy so it would be known whats going on. Of course, if the player is not happy with their volunteer they can request another. Perhaps the volunteers would work on seeking out new players in game and in forum to make them feel at home and comfortable till they are ready to leave the nest and fly off into EMC on their own and perhaps become a volunteer themselves.

(side note: It would be wonderful if this was the norm for every player that entered EMC with no program)

I believe getting in on the ground level and helping players learn from the start what is going on through interaction is the way. We are a community, so they should see people and interaction on our part.

I just skimmed over half of the last few posts, so if this was mentioned in them, you can ignore me.

I get that this isn't a freedom of speech issue. The OP mentions he's afraid to post things that question the rules or staff actions. This isn't an "I guess I'm not allowed to" thing, this is an "If I post this, how would it be received?" thing.

People are afraid of the backlash and negative criticism you'll get out of things like this. That kind of backlash can often turn into drama or even hostile sounding, causing the staff to close the thread before it gets worse.

People are afraid of being wrong. People are afraid of people stating the opposite opinion. This isn't that people don't know that they have freedom of speech, this is that they're afraid of what might come from posting such a radical opinion.

I had something else typed out but decided that it was too much, 1. EMC is NOT a "private party" anyone can join and everyone is entitled to their freedoms within the rules of the server, its a given that doesnt need explained, the fact that you havent learned it already probably means you wont until its changed to how you want it to be :/, i still believe a better way to help EMC grow is by contibuting to ideas that the comunity comes up with

A part of this is still not clear though. (Sorry if it's really only me, but probably I'm not the only clueless one here.)
- Are you a staff member yourself in this matter? What if you are involved yourself or if you're moderating yourself and a member has a problem with it and if they are not able to resolve it directly with you?
- Do you represent Aikar, the owner of EMC / Starlis? When you give an answer, does it have the authority of Aikar's, owners answer? Is there a need to bother Aikar if someone has a problem with it?

How about the other questions above in the thread?
Would you directly address them and directly answer / confirm?
Would you add the important points to the wiki?

PS: I suggest to change the thread topic to "[Suggestion] EMC Bill of Rights" - in accordance with the current OP - to avoid further misunderstandings.

I'm getting a really uncomfortable feeling about this post, just saying.

Ignoring the matter at hand (no idea what you're referring too) I can say that Krysyy is a part of staff, active one even. I've seen her mute players who broke the rules, though very sporadically.

Then you take it up to Aikar. After all: he is the actual owner and obviously has the last say in things. And before you now might start on how this should be mentioned on the wiki: IMVHO it shouldn't (just so were clear: coming from someone who helps to maintain said wiki).

Because I can already imagine what's coming up next: So what happens if you don't agree with Aikar, who do you complain to next? Also: there is a reason why Aikar chose to let Krysyy handle the administrative tasks. For starters because I get the impression that he wants to focus more on the technical parts (which can take up a lot of your time) without having to deal with all this. This thread is a perfect example of that IMO.

SO although I definitely think that contacting Aikar is a valid option it's not something to be taken casually.

And well, like it or not, there comes a time where you just have to accept things for what they are. Especially when you're a guest in someone else's domain.

Aikar is the owner who concentrates on the technical aspects of the game whereas Krysyy handles the administrative aspects. Something which has also been said time and time again and which, in my opinion, should be quite obvious when you look at both player's titles: Aikar being the "Owner & Lead developer", whereas Krysyy is the "Community manager".

I don't see the confusion here. And trust me: I'm pretty decent when it comes to trying to approach things from another perspective, especially that of a newbie. I've raised dozens of suggestions already where my only focus was that of a new player. That's not saying I'm perfect, but within this context I still disagree with you here.

For the record: I've done this earlier already, but I'm seriously tempted to report the thread again and request it to be closed. This is going around in circles and stopped serving any purpose.

I'm also a little troubled with the fact that you claim to be in support of SSRC's Bill of Rights but the more I read your comments the more convinced I've become that you're now using his momentum to work out your own agenda. And quite frankly that's something I can't really appreciate.

I wouldnt suggest that at all. It was a demand and continues to be demands for things that already exist. I don't understand why it should be renamed?

As far as the issues with staff I think its pretty clear and I it seems to me that most people get it fairly easily. Perhaps you are searching for uncertainty in it. Why would you be unable to go to kryssy about an issue you have with her? Why would kryssy not be considered staff?(truly the only legal staff lol) why wouldn't you be able to contact aikar if you were uncomfortable with talking to kryssy? If you still have a problem after talking to the two of them then why wouldn't you be able to handle/live with the problem or otherwise solve the problem? I just cant for the life of me understand where exactly this line of reasoning is going.

Shell ninja'd with far more words, in true shell fashion xD it tickles me pink every time.