[SUGGESTION] Claiming outpost in the Nether and End

Bump😁

I don't really care that much about the end, other than I don't see why it isn’t a thing jet, as there are no further technical difficulties when it comes to regulating, rule-wise it should all be the same as the over world. The Nether is a bit more complicated though, but I don't think less important:

You see, it mainly was like this before 1.9, but it still is true that if you have a large farming outpost (Large: as mob farms generally work better in a desert biomes due to husks spawning, and stuff like ocean monuments and witch hunts being bound to a location) traveling goes mainly via the Nether, not only to an outpost, but also inside one. To minimise time taken and annoyance when you need to grab something from your storage area when working on a project roughly thousand blocks away it generally is a very good idea to have that storage area in the Nether and, as the storage usually is the centre of your base, that makes that basically the entire “base” is in the nether.
I prefer to have the storage area in the Nether hub of my base.

The outpost Tom is talking about is one I am too a part of and we indeed are working on making our storage work in the Nether and it would be seriously annoying if we couldn’t claim that place, as that is the only place where there would be actual valuable stuff and also be the area with the most fragile and complicated redstone.

All with all I think the 3000 blocks away from the nearest not by you man-made structure would also fit for the nether as the reason that rule is in place doesn’t change by doing it in the nether, so I don’t see a reason why it should be changed. The fact that that means you need to be away 24,000 blocks away from the respective over world location might look like is a bit overkill, but that’s simply a technicality of how the Nether works, but, if you want to claim your outpost in the Nether, that’s just the way it is. But I have a solution to that, kind of:

This is what I would do:
If you’re claiming an outpost in the over world and want to claim the corresponding nether side for a hub, that would be only claiming the area in the Nether relative to the over world, meaning all numbers would be divided by 8. Maybe there could be an exemption on the rule “no manmade structures” specifically for simple nether rail tunnels that do not have a station anywhere near the pending to be claimed area, that depends on technicalities I do not know.
If you’re claiming an outpost in the Nether, same rules as for the over world. 3000 blocks around no manmade structures. Additionally there may not be any manmade structures 3000 blocks or less near the “Nether portal area” of the area you’re claiming in the over world, meaning it must be impossible to link up nether portals from the area you’re claiming to less than 3000 blocks away from any man-made structures found in the over world. (Which is just another fixed distance from the over world side of the centre of what you’re claiming to said over world structures, which I believe is around 10,000 blocks)

~Jelle

The only issue I see with this is that it would prevent the End from ever being reset, and that's not likely to happen.

The wild/wilderness, nether and end have only been reset once to my knowledge and that was in 2012 and just like the movie it was a bit of a disaster for a lot of players. It was agreed after that to never reset them that's why we have the wastelands and waste nether, I do feel though that we should have a waste End also to make it a little easier to get shulkers. Flying or walking 10k plus blocks to find a shulker is a very tedious task. I suppose portals could be added, but that's really upto Aikar. I know they would help

We do have a waste end...

Bump

Disclaimer: I don't play as actively as I used to do, but I / we do have an officially established outpost on SMP9 (still proud of that place even though there isn't much to see!) and... after having played for over a year (?) there we finally made a netherrail to make it easier to go back & forth to town.

And it's that last part why I have to go -1 on your suggestion (sorry).

First: you can claim areas in the nether, but in true EMC fashion you don't really claim the land but the blocks you use. And /buildmode is a thing in the nether too. So if you want to you can protect your stuff.

But second, and much more important....

What about nether rails?

So let's say for the sake of argument that you claimed an area in the nether. We'll ignore the overworld, the 1:8 ratio and all that for now. Your build is on y72 while I am building my nether rail around y12. So here I am; digging and building and obviously I have no idea that I'm passing your area.

Fast forward and you're expanding your build and suddenly discover my nether rail.

Since this is your terrain I now have to remove my stuff and reroute? Where to? Because obviously (for the sake of argument) the area next to you is also claimed so basically; you guys now effectively cut me off from reaching town using my own netherrail.

Sure: I know that things won't be played out this black/white but even so: this is still a risk if claiming land in the nether would be officially allowed.

In the end I think it's a much better approach to leave the Nether as-is: an area that belongs to us all and where we can claim blocks as we always could.

See... the reason for my opinion is because we've been here....

After one (or two) years of playing on SMP9's Frontier Aya & me decided that "enough is enough" and we started building a netherrail. Boy, we had FUN! that moment when.... you carefully dig (lava risk!) and suddenly notice that you actually reached the area near outpost!

But during that digging we actually stumbled upon another players netherrail! The coolest thing, it was really well build, but the walls weren't protected which is why we 'breached' it at first. Obviously we repaired and then "re-routed" our rail to cross theirs.

Anyway, now I'm venting

So...

Sorry, but I have to go -1 on this. I think the Nether is much better off if it belongs to all players and gives everyone a chance to claim their own (small?) part of the nether through block protection.

Just my 2 cents obviously.

I don't mean to be harsh or overly-critical of OP's wishes (and those that have voted "yes"). However, I do think it's important to share my perspective and opinion on this, so here we go.

From what I understand of things, I don't think this would be a good thing to add. Some of my (serious) concerns are related to the Outpost Claiming process in these worlds, but most troubling to me is the matter of travel between outposts and spawn.

It is a fact that the Nether has long been The ideal method of travel between distant places. In the overworld, there's no problem with having your outposts (virtually) wherever you want them. People will just take the nether right through and nobody will notice or be bothered that your outpost is between theirs and the spawn.

Once you're in the nether (the main method of going long distances) having outposts that are "in the way" becomes a problem. People can't pass through with their path without going a very long distance out of their way. Even if you hypothetically don't claim the upper/lower 30 blocks... not everyone builds their paths in the upper/lower 30 blocks, and not everyone's will fit within that limitation even if they do build at the top or bottom. You will have essentially blocked off someone from their own outpost.

The concern with blocking travel also exists in the End. Not everyone travels by Elytra. True it's much faster and easier, but some would prefer to make a path and be sure of the ground beneath them (also, not everyone can afford elytra, or have a large backup supply of them to risk on long journeys). Somebody passing through the corner/side of your outpost would never know they are trespassing (there are no maps of the End, and mini-maps are limited to the number of chunks sent by the server). There is no "alternate world to travel through" in the End, so making sure people can get through to their next destination is even more important.

Having said all of that, it's important to clarify a few things:

• What you build can be protected with Anti-Grief even if you aren't in your outpost.
  • In fact, you should always be using /buildmode to protect your things - even inside an outpost.
• Further, a structure does not have to be within an outpost to be under the protection of our "Do Not Grief" rule. That rule is always in effect, everywhere on EMC.
• Methods of locking chests from passersby are no different within outposts.
  • You have access to using the [Locked] sign no matter where you are in the frontier/waste (beyond a little buffer zone around the official spawns in the Frontier).
• The benefit of an established outpost is that your claimed land extends far past the area which you've been clearly living and building in, and allows for comfy expansion without worry of neighbors/passersby taking that bit of land you had plans for.
  • However, there is precedent for asking someone to leave an area you have clearly been living and building in, even if the area is not an established outpost (there are exceptions and limitations, of course, but it is possible).

For these reasons and more, I'm not a fan of adding Outpost Claiming to the Nether and End worlds. It's not necessary, in my opinion, and the troubles far outweigh the benefits.

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editing to add: Hi Shel I see it took far too long to write up my reply xD

Thank you for your input

Thank you your input

What about those who have their outpost in the nether? My outpost is in the nether, and it would, in my opinion, be quite unfair if I could not have the same status other outposts have, and enjoy the same protective abilities once "the outpost update" comes out.

Is this an officially established outpost? Because then you can picture me confused considering that I got the impression that you can't establish there.

But yeah, this leads up to my second point which I skipped above... the 1:8 ratio. You need to be 1500 blocks away from another outpost meaning that you get 750 blocks all around your locked chest. Since the Nether is 8:1 this means that you'd only be able to claim 187 blocks in order to prevent overlap with the Overworld, and I'd imagine that a regular outpost is much larger.

This could turn into an administrative nightmare

No, it's not an officially established outpost, that is exactly what I'm trying to fix here.

I would be okay with nether outposts being only 3000÷8=375 blocks in each direction. That should be enough for us, and if not, we'll just claim a "part 2" .

In our case, we will eventually also claim the overworld "near" our nether base, but the nether will remain our actual center. We are far away enough from spawn to make netherrails unlikely.

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How about this: allow nether outposts, but allow that netherrails can be made through them, as long as they don't hinder what's been built by the outpost.

How about this v2: in the overworld, outposts have to be 5000 blocks away from spawn. I think it would be okay to limit nether outposts to this distance too (or perhaps something like 2500 or 1500 blocks, because the nether is infinitely harder to navigate), so netherrails have space to branch out in their direction.

Bump

Thank you for everyone who commented and voted. The reason I made this post was to bring up the problem of claiming in the nether and the End. But as I read, the Nether is too complicated to regulate and causes more problems than solving and that's okay. What I was really after was claiming an outpost in the end. As some might know, I have an event being made and I want all of the builds to be noticed and remember on the forums as an outpost. For people to use them and have a name there. I wanted to make a End base very far out (500k+ blocks). So there shouldn't have been a problem right?? Well only overworld can be claimed. I was devastated and Ancientower can tell you, I wasn't happy. That is why I made this post. So I can get players and staff/admins/managers/etc, to comment and give their own opinions. I would love to have my end base an established outpost but if the players and staff would not have it that way, then so be it. Thank you again to the people that have commented, voted and gave thier opinions.

Most of the points that have been made drive the point home on why this is a terrible idea, regardless of the desires of people that don't quite understand the implications(the problem with this democracy of the community type of appeal) to the points already made though: It is completely unnecessary. If you have an end base, I seriously doubt anyone is even going to find it as there are very few of us that even use the end in the frontier and I would think if you made a base it would be quite a ways away anyways. claiming land in the nether is silly. We have the anti-grief protection and if something is greifed you can get staff to help with it. monopolizing the nether is a TERRIBLE idea.

Thank you Gawa <3

-1

I envision that making a claim in the Nether would be akin to using a Pop Tent on a highway.

I think the key to securing an Outpost in the Nether is the detail given to the build. Essentially a protected perimeter must be built to prevent penetration. (This holds true in the Overworld too)

Reminds me of the song 'Living in a Box' by Mix. (1987)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svVaEWQaoSo

Dig it!! LOL

-BZ-

Okay… I found some time to write some things out again…
First of all, I think most people here are guilty of an false dilemma, as most people seem to argue that you either claim all of it, or claim none of it, and argue that problems imposed by this can only be solved by not doing it.
Let’s just write down the argument most people are making against nether claiming:
P: The nether is the best solution for traveling;
P: There is no close alternative to nether traveling;
P: Traveling ought to be more important than outposts;
P: Outposts and traveling cannot coexist
Ergo:
You ought not have nether outposts.
That is a totally valid argument, assuming all the premises are correct, jet I would like to disagree with the last one. “Outposts and traveling cannot coexist”
Yes, with how outposts work in the over world it would be a problem, therefore not changing any rules for the nether would be a bad idea, jet that never was the intention.
Let’s just add two rules:
1: you cannot claim a nether outpost distanced less than 5000 blocks to a respective teleporteble over world location.
2: a nether outpost does not include the top and bottom 15 blocks of the nether.
These two rules should make traveling and outposts coexist totally fine: you cannot claim an outpost near already existing rails, so those won’t get affected, and all rails that are further out than 5000 blocks from any teleporteble location are in the not claimed region anyway (which makes me assume most rails are, which is as close as you can get to an /is/ statement here), which should mean new rails won’t be affected too. And this, on top of that, would also advice everyone to make their rails at those respective y levels.

For the administration regarding the different travel ratio of the nether, I think I covered that in my previous post, jet, as some people posted it might be a problem after that, I would like to see why you think it still is a problem, assuming the guidelines I spent quite a while on thinking out properly.

Saying you find something stupid is not a valid argument: the argument starts once you start explaining why you think it’s a bad idea, you give another solution and say people “don’t understand the implications” Jet the explanation why you think such non sequitur. Especially not for the end.

In the 7+ years I have played on EMC I have started or joined several communities as well as developed many farms in the Frontier Overworld and Nether on multiple servers. Many of these preceded block protection or the concept of Outposts and everything that has come/has been planned since. If all of what we built were to be included, much of these would expand beyond the 3000 block radius that is covered by an Outpost. For various reasons, many of the Nether rails and structures also cross the 15 block free zone Jelle has suggested. If you were to map what we did in the Nether onto the Overworld, nearly all the Nether rails and sub-Outposts would definitely extend way beyond what we are allowed.

In several of these I am the only player who regularly visits much there anymore and not as much as I once did, but I do still want to feel free from the fear of griefing and would prefer to have some autonomy over what happens in these places mainly because of the effort I have put into developing them and my desire to use them as needed without outside interference just as most other players would wish to do. During my time playing here, I have been mostly satisfied with the efforts Staff have made to help me as well as with the improvements they have made on rules and feel the system we have currently fits most player's needs pretty well. I think I can see some benefit to allowing a small part of the Nether corresponding to an Outpost's core to be included though.

If we eventually are allowed to teleport to our Outposts, this will allow us to travel more quickly to nearby areas of the Nether, making Nether rails less useful except for short distances. I feel a little differently about The End, mainly because the Overworld and Nether can be linked and it cannot.

Rather than allowing Outposts in The End, I think I would rather ask that we develop a way to link Overworld Outposts to The End. As I recall, someone has suggested this once before. Each Outpost might be allowed one End Portal, for example, that links to an area of the The End. These could be something like the current portals in The End where you throw an Ender Pearl through that reside somewhere in an Outpost and could be earned or purchased.

By default the destination could be the common Outpost in the Waste or Frontier End, or a Staff approved area farther out in The End which the Outpost owner chooses. Given the general protections we already have, this would eventually add the main benefit of fast travel to The End and effectively make Outposts more interesting and useful.

People argue that netherrails through nether outposts would be an issue. Why not just allow netherrails to be created through outposts, as long as they don't interfere with the actual outpost? That seems to solve that "issue".

"monopolising the nether is a TERRIBLE idea" we are already "monopolising" the overworld, why not the nether too?