Standing with Standing Rock

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Aikar, Nov 30, 2016.

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Do You Stand with Standing Rock?

Yes 124 vote(s) 79.5%
No 32 vote(s) 20.5%
  1. Researching the money has gotten me out to vote on the issues and actually voice them to the people making the choices in our government - congressmen and women. I did my part. I find that far from complicit. I also have been spending my full time hours working in the government building so I get to talk with these people every day. I write to the ones I don't see, I use the methods of contact listed to voice my opinion.

    It's not really cynical to call the spade a spade. I find it factual. Most of the decisions made by government officials are all about money - Prime example is the fit being had by various groups over Trumps golf trips, the money being spent on security for his family and it's current living situation. Granted that fit is a bit unfounded as when you look at the broader picture it is literally 1% of the current spending of the government. We really need to talk about that damn military budge and why we're buying more weapons instead of spending it on things to improve the lives of our citizens... or this bloody stupid wall he wants to build... Come on use that to give some funding to PBS, or to dump back into Social Security and Medicaid/Medicare where it was taken from in the first place.

    I don't see any of this as cynical. I just see it as logical and factual. I'm 30 years old, I've seen what the baby boomers generation did, followed by mine and now the latest one coming up. I've learned through research that calling the spade a spade is the only thing that stops me *from* being complicit. Letting this lie and walking away from an argument because someone disagrees with you or name calling is complicate. That's giving in and following the crowd. I can't do that anymore.

    I have my place. I have plans that once I get property I'm becoming as off the grid as I can because that's how I cut costs for myself and how I make the right changes.

    I'm not allowed to install solar panels at my apartment that can also heat my home, I'm not allowed to have a garden or raise chickens, I'm not allowed to have cows and goats here.

    Never once did I state that change was impossible. Just that it's not plausible in the greater public's eye because they refused to see it. It's like asking your grandmother why she doesn't keep butter in the fridge 'It's fine where it is/It's the way we've always done it/My mother did it that way.'

    People don't want to look past their noses. They don't want to think about why or how - why would they when it's the world they've known and it works for them?
    ShelLuser likes this.
  2. I am or was one of those people when I was much younger then I had my sapling and my nose became so small that all I could do was to see past it. I was overwhelmed at all the crap that goes on because we've been so complacent about it and we've been normalized to it all. back then I had no idea that even I could help make that change .. one grain of rice .. if we all offered one grain of rice.. I personally do what I can when I can and as often as I can. Yep, you bet I look past my nose and to my daughters and the earths future. I'm working for a world that's not run by the few.


    I want to thank Hashhog and Pab10S for putting into words what I could not in a much more understandable way (too emotional for me and word smith I ain't) and i sure do appreciate those that are. :p
    PetezzaDawg likes this.
  3. PetezzaDawg likes this.
  4. We need to give up on oil and move onto renewable energy. I don't get why companies and politics like to work together to ruin everything for everyone else, not only ruining for it humans but animals too. :I
  5. First time seeing this thread even though im late to it ill add some of my input since I am actually from North Dakota unlike most people (like most protestors).

    Before I get people claiming I am with the oil companies im not. I don't like the oil companies at all myself. Since this "oil boom" that happened again all that's come about it is trouble. From unemployed losers moving up here to try and find work (because of sites like msn.com showing articles on their front page at least twice with titles such as "looking for work, head to North Dakota") and then those people get here and realize they can't get work at the oil pipelines because those places are looking for experienced workers or can only get work at crapy places like fast food joints. Then they either leave again, or stick around and go on welfare cause they don't want to work the fast food joints.

    That also brings lots of degenerates that are into crime and thus a lot of crime has gone up in some areas because of this. The influx of extra people has also caused the housing market to skyrocket. This has caused older people, who own their home and are on fixed incomes, where their taxes on their property has gone up and then cannot afford the houses they own and have lived in their whole lives and are required to sell them and move because all the other houses have been sold or are being sold.

    And for anyone looking to move into their own place you have houses that used to go for a decent price like around 20 grand to 50 grand are now going for over 200 thousand and up.

    I don't want some stupid oil pipeline going through our state as it is. However, there are already a number of them going through our state already. Some of which have already had leaks or breaks and has caused a lot of problems. There has also been laws put in place where any leaks over a certain amount of "barrels" doesn't have to be reported. I don't remember exactly how many "barrels" of oil had to be spilled before they had to be reported but now a recent law has made it so that anything under 10 "barrels" of oil doesn't have to be reported.

    And there are plenty of articles out there that can show you there have been a lot of oil spills in the past around here in North Dakota. I don't like it anymore then the peoples whose land is ruined because of oil spilling out and pouring out all over their land. There are still sites that are contaminated and clean up hasn't really happened much at all since the breaks.

    So now all of a sudden after these corporations have already bought the land and/or use of running a pipeline across the country then all these protestors are upset. Sorry but the corporations already bought the land/use of land and have every right to run those pipelines even if we don't like it. Plus maybe the protestors should be mad at the Native Americans and/or land owners who sold their property or the rights to their property for those corporations to run pipeline through them (though some of those land owners probably had no choice cause the gov't can also seize land if they want to for stuff it they so desire, at least they have been able to in the past).

    Then we get protesters (which a few rumors went around a lot of them are being paid off by certain groups to just come and protest) and a few celebrities come up here to "fight the good fight" yet most if not all are never around any other time stuff goes on. And worse yet, a lot of protestors started taking garbage and other stuff and blocking the highway. Now that doesn't just inconvenience the corporation but also civilians who are trying to travel from one spot to the other. Some having to use some of those roads to get to work. Since some North Dakota residence live sometimes over an hour away driving from their work and have to commute each day back and forth. I know of some people who have to do this every day because their home/land is far away from the town they work and they have to work because they need the money.

    Now when they first started doing this they were getting away with it for a good few weeks. Now those highways are state/gov't property and im pretty sure it's against the law to block a highway. But those protesters didn't get into trouble (at least not right away) because of it. If I were to just start blocking a roadway/highway the police probably wouldn't wait to arrest me for doing that. Then the protestors lit some of their "wall" on fire as well.

    This caused not only the swat to have to come but also firefighters from a bunch of different cities to come out and try and help put out the fire. So if there was other fires going on in other towns there might be a problem with a lack of firefighters around in some of those cities to help fight it, all because of the protestors.

    Then around winter time a lot of protestors left/kicked out? and went back down south. They also left a lot of dogs and cats to die in the cold harsh winter that we had. A lot of those animals had to be helped and relocated by the humane society etc. Some weren't so lucky and died in the freezing temperatures, some got frost bite on their ears and exterminates.

    Now I don't care what it is you're fighting, but when you leave lots of helpless animals behind to try and survive up here in the cold when you leave and go down South because you think it's to cold to stay up here and leave defenseless animals behind to die then you're awful people.

    I don't want more oil pipelines up here since iv seen how dangerous they can be to our drinking water. There is a number of aquifer below the ground, including one big one nearby that basically provide drinking water to probably 90% of people in North Dakota. And if oil were to get into there then there would be a huge problem for everyone.

    However, other renewable energies around here don't work. Solar power would only work 3-5 months out of the year. The rest of the time it's to cloudy, snowy, cold for those to work well here. I have looked into it myself and unfortunately just doesn't work. Then there is air turbines, which work however, once they start paying for themselves they have to be replaced so you never get your moneys worth it around here at least from what iv researched. Maybe the technology has gotten better since then but still a gamble.

    For those who live down south you can go with solar or wind or hydro but up here we don't have that luxury. We are unfortunately (and probably will always have to be) dependent on fossil fuels to get around in vehicles etc. Trust me i'd love to be able to use solar power up here, but it's too costly and doesn't provide much electricity mainly cause of where we are. Especially in the winter when most roof's are covered with 3-10 or more inches of snow for months. Plus the possibility of hail which could very easily damage those solar panels quite a lot. If you look it up, we are dead last when it comes to renewables. Don't even get tax credit when trying to go into them.

    And after all is said and done, those pipes are still gonna go in and all those protestors and famous people that showed up for a little bit are already gone. The main problem is with all our political congress men/women who allow this because they are either bribed by big corporations or are threatened with losing their positions if they don't support it etc. That is where our main problem lies and has been for a loooooong time. Until we either get rid of congress or get better people in that wont be swayed by bribes or threat's and are actually interested in better ways to keep the Earth livable for the foreseeable future.
    TomvanWijnen likes this.
  6. Nothing to really add just wanted to tell ya ... I can and do agree with you on a few of the things you've said here and some I have no idea about as I don't live there.

    I look forward to the day when we really do have people that actually care for our home.. the world.. and the inhabitants that live on it instead of their own greed. Unfortunately that would ask people to actually use their brains and not just follow along like sheep to herded and told what and how to think so sadly .. not in my lifetime if ever. :(
    We3_MPO and TuckerAmbr like this.
  7. Thanks Hoops that really interesting. I agree it probably had to with big oil henchmen.
  8. Yeah there are some stuff im not sure about that I left out of the comment because they are hearsay. But I am close enough that I hear from a lot of people that mention stuff they have seen or heard etc.

    For the most part overall is that the protesters were only causing problems. And this isn't from people who want the oil pipeline. They also don't want their drinking water contaminated by the leaks that WILL happen eventually (since there has been many leaks and breaks in many of the pipelines in the past and continue to still have problems). They brought some media attention to it which doesn't hurt I guess but didn't really change anything.
  9. Wha? So you are suggesting that people should just lay down and let big business roll over them because in the end big business will get what they want anyway? Gotta say that is just soooo sad. Maybe people standing up for their rights isn't always convenient for everyone but it is and will be increasing more important if we are going to save our planet.
    crystaldragon13 likes this.
  10. He is suggesting that protesters are allowed to their rights. However, when they obstruct proceedings of others the "peaceful" protesting has gone too far. Standing up for one's home and land is fine but abusing one's rights and disrupting others takes it over the line.
  11. I understand that. Republican controlled states including mine are in the process or have enacted laws that are putting the hammer down on public gatherings. New laws where the political party in control can shut down public gatherings because they deem them disruptive under these new more constrictive laws. Why do you really think they want to do this? Is it because they are concerned about someone having to drive 3 blocks out of there way to get somewhere or is it because the individuals gathering are protesting against them or what the people in power want? I can be sympathetic to both perspectives but can you see where I am going with this? The country is walking a slippery slope in so many ways currently.
    crystaldragon13 likes this.
  12. Funny how I arrived here. I see this little water droplet in the lower right, think "what's this little thing here for?", click it and here I am.

    I am a "No" here. After all, we are talking about the United States Government. They are going to do whatever they want, whenever they want ... and you won't stop them. Couple that with the fact that Big Oil is involved, and the Republicans are now in control, and it's pretty much game over here. For those of you around the World who don't live here, on the surface, this looks pretty discouraging. But for those of us who live here, we ALL know it's only a matter of time.

    Jobs created, resources moved better/cheaper/faster than before, $ to be made off of it ... need I say any more? Had a very similar situation, at a very Local level, regarding the Delaware River and pumping water to cool a Nuclear Power Plant in Limerick, Pa.. Same resistance, different "leakage" as well as environmental impact, and at the end of the day, guess what? There's a well-defined path, through the trees and people's backyards, for some 50 miles or more across 2 Counties and there has never been a mention of it since. No leaks, no Environmental impact, but DONE none the less.

    I will not engage you as a part of the discussion here. This is MY opinion.... period. When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.

    I am AJMyers34 and I approve this message.
    Equinox_Boss likes this.
  13. I was going to reply to this but I remembered I also voted 'no' - albeit sarcastically, but I still chose that option. Now anything I say here has no credibility.

    sadpepe.jpeg
    PetezzaDawg likes this.
  14. Yes you really do. Potential for devastating effect on the environment if there's a large spill. Missed that one. But I imagine you don't live in the area that would be affected if it happened but you still feel you can dictate to the people that would be affected. Don't you. As far as jobs, the only really jobs would be those constructing it. Why don't we fix our bridges and roads, etc... if it's about jobs. I suggest you do your research before making decisions about other peoples futures.
  15. I realised the poll isn't public. Let the crap-talking commence.
    Wait... Didn't he also compare an oil pipeline to a nuclear power plant?

    Nuclear power plants are safe in the right hands (which, unless you live in Chernobyl in Ukraine during 1986, they are). The energy produced from them is clean, and it's also the only clean and renewable alternative we have to things like oil and coal. They also actually create hundreds of jobs that will be there for the foreseeable future, rather than just temporary ones while constructing it. Despite what the CND and other anti-nuclear nutjobs (like the Australians) would have you believe, nuclear is the way forward.

    Oil pipelines have destructive effects on the environment, take money from what could be invested in clean alternatives, and stimulate what should be a dying trade. And I'll bet his nuclear power plant's water cooling wasn't going to destroy culturally important Native American land, either.
    crystaldragon13 and God_Of_Gods like this.
  16. crystaldragon13 and ShelLuser like this.
  17. This seemed appropriate

    SlimyGreenGoop6 likes this.
  18. I have to admit, I stand corrected on a few shared points of criticism in my post earlier on.

    Around 320liters of oil spilled due to a defective pump "just like that"? :eek:

    Yeah, I can now definitely understand the raised concerns a little bit more. I mean... this is considered to be a somewhat minor incident and you already got a leak which volume is pretty mind blowing for me (300l is a lot of oil). Makes you wonder what will happen if something more drastic goes wrong :confused:
  19. Enbridge is one of the companies involved in the pipeline. This article describes a pipeline leak of theirs in 2010 a couple hours away from where I live. According to this and another article I read, it took about 17 hours between the leak starting until the pipeline was shut down and damage control started.

    Their first indicator was a pressure drop, which they ignored. 911 calls started a few hours later with reports about smelling gas. It took a Consumers Power employee onsite to let Enbridge know that their pipeline was leaking into a feeder creek and another half hour before any of their people were sent to the site.

    It spilled well over 800,000 gallons of tar sand oil into the Kalamazoo River, affected forty miles of the river, and cost 1.2 billion to clean up. They put booms on the surface but, tar sand oil being what it is, much of it went to the bottom and had to be dredged.

    Earlier this year I read that a dual pipeline they own in the Straits of Mackinac, between Lake Michigan and Huron, is defective and that there is(hopefully was by now) no government emergency spill plan. A spill there could be much worse, especially during winter when the surface freezes.
  20. They said it's not a matter of IF the pipeline leaks but WHEN... and this just proves it. This was a leak when the pipeline wasn't even fully operational, so it at had a fraction of the amount of oil it will have in it once it is... so this leak would've been A LOT bigger if it was fully operational.

    I'm definitely no expert on this particular subject but I've read papers on these leaks and it seems to always be chalked up to negligence on behalf of the oil companies... either taking shortcuts on the builds or just being in too much of a hurry in general. It's crazy to me because it really seems like they just don't give a damn about the environment at all, it's just about meeting a deadline and making a dollar.