Standing with Standing Rock

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Aikar, Nov 30, 2016.

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Do You Stand with Standing Rock?

Yes 123 vote(s) 79.4%
No 32 vote(s) 20.6%
  1. North Dakota is one of the most geologically stable places in all of North America. The chance of a tremor of sufficient magnitude to rupture the proposed pipeline is virtually zero. In fact, they are so uncommon in that region that Earthquaketrack.com's list of "recent" events goes back almost 30 years with the largest recorded checking in at only 4.2 on the Richter scale with its epicenter about 200 miles away from the Standing Rock reservation. For comparison, California's recent event list goes back only a few hours.

    http://earthquaketrack.com/p/united-states/north-dakota/recent

    There is also the matter of the existing Northern Border Pipeline which transports as much as 2 million cubic feet of natural gas per day. It was built in 1983 and crosses Lake Oahe on the Missouri River near Cannon Ball, North Dakota. That is on the northern tip of Standing Rock reservation. If construction of the Dakota Access Pipeline is an unwarranted danger then why are there not also coincident protests calling for the removal of the Northern Border Pipeline that was constructed with older technology and which runs through pretty much the exact same location?

    To be very clear, I'm all for people standing up for their property rights and protecting their cultural heritage. To me, that's the best platform which the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe has to make their case. But at the same time, much of the evidence of supposed environmental threat I find to be very thin and exaggerated which hurts their cause. Furthermore, the US Army Corps of Engineers did not cite any environmental justifications when it denied an access easement for the pipeline across the Missouri River.
    ShelLuser and samsimx like this.
  2. I never even considered an earthquake to rupture it, but that's true it could happen. I was thinking more of human error or even terrorism. And I've heard all that before, "the chances are so small, the chances are so small". But the bottom line is if it does happen it will be disastrous and even if the chances are small why take such a huge risk just to enrich an oil company. It makes no sense to me, maybe it does to you.

    Is this the old two wrongs make a right argument. Very clever.

    I don't think you or anyone is arguing that a rupture in the pipeline has the potential to cause an environmental disaster. And that a rupture is not impossible. The question is, is the risk worth the reward? What will the American public get from taking that risk? Some short term construction jobs making it. I prefer fixing bridges with the funds myself. Higher gas prices. Forcing Americans to give up their land to a big oil company. Gotta say, I don't think we are getting a whole lot to take such a huge chance. But that's just me.
  3. There are already numerous pipelines across the entire state of North Dakota. I'm not trying to be clever I'm simply asking that if a new one is a truly existential threat then why isn't there an effort underway to rid the region of many equal, if not greater threats?

    https://northdakotapipelines.com/maps/

    And news flash, those oil companies in North Dakota are presently sending most of the +/- 1 million barrels of petroleum produced daily out of state via railroad. If you think rail shipping is a safer and more environmentally sound method than pipelines I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...d7c67c50db0_story.html?utm_term=.80a78322e120

    http://www.sightline.org/2015/05/06/oil-train-explosions-a-timeline-in-pictures/
  4. US pipelines have spilled three times as much crude oil than rail has. When a pipeline bursts it is harder to contain than a leaking oil tanker and will leak significantly more crude into the environment. And only a certain amount can spill out of a punctured rail car. You can't seriously be arguing against that pipelines pose a larger risk for a massive release of crude oil into the environment. I can post a hundred links saying it does. And it's just kinda common sense.
    crystaldragon13 likes this.
  5. Yes, they have. Pipeline ruptures also tend to occur much less frequently and in relative isolation whereas oil trains constantly pollute via copious quantities of diesel emissions and kill people via collisions, explosions, and toxic fumes when they derail in populated areas. I guess it really comes down to what your definition of "safer" happens to be.

    If you want to shut down pipelines and stick it to big oil on principle, that's fine with me. Just also be aware that by advocating for the status quo you're simultaneously enriching multi-billionaires such as Warren Buffet who have major financial stakes in rail companies. Personally, I think we should be looking into improving the safety of both modes of transport and leave the fear mongering out of it.
    ShelLuser likes this.
  6. It's not fear mongering, the risk is real.
    crystaldragon13 likes this.
  7. The risk of life on Earth being wiped out tomorrow via a cosmic gamma-ray burst or impact event is also real. Unless you're talking about something like the Federal Emergency Management Agency though, statistical improbabilities and disaster scenarios are not points upon which effectual business and government policies are based. Again, the alternative is the status quo. I think we can do better.
  8. What I think about SWSR:
    1. There should be strict limits on how much water an oil/gas pipeline can cross. I know it's unlikely to break, but it isn't impossible, and it would contaminate a lot of water, which is important for drinking and the environment, if it did break. The further a pipe is from a year-round stream, the better.
    2. The violence that the police have caused against protesters is unacceptable. That they keep escalating it is worse. That the military has to get involved? Very serious stuff, whether it be for the protesters or police. Plus they are protesters for clean drinking water and a clean environment, which is a HUMAN RIGHT, and one that should not be taken away.
    3. They should not be allowed to tear down a historical building when it isn't necessary to do so, unless the building is legitimately causing harm or extreme disrespect.

    What you said here is VERY true. I think we need to balance out the price, risks, benefits, likelihood, and alternative scenarios, all at once. With many major road projects there's often a few "build" alternatives and a no-build alternative. It should be that way with everything that has the potential for complaints and/or significant impacts.
    ShelLuser and crystaldragon13 like this.
  9. .. and it's only been a few days in. We need to fight him tooth and nail. Those that votedfor him will wake up sooner or later.. well.. hopefully most anyway. ;-;

    We3_MPO and JohnKid like this.
  10. well... what did you expect? who can all see that I support President Trump, but did anyone really assume that he was going to be a democrat? that he was going to come out and chose in favor of people of other nations? President Trump said that his policy would be "buy American, hire American." this is just a interesting point to me... he is at best skeptical about climate change... these are not what he got elected for, he was not elected by people like us... he was elected by people who voted and then went to go ty to find work bc the steel mill is gone, that is the American that is out voting. I'm not trying to attack you, rather I'm agreeing with you. I believe President Trump will not focus on special groups, Beliefs/Gays/minorities. This is not something that is well known but I am a minority. i said it. he is not worried about the Standing Rock or anybody else, it America as a whole.
    I'm not even sure if he was right here, but i will do the thing that i believe will do the most for this President Nation and world. I will Pray. I kneel with the world
    ToddV likes this.
  11. You... do... realize their is no positive side to this argument?
  12. Not to derail this thread, but...

    I hate to say this but those aren't coming back. The future is automation and Trump has only accelerated that lol.

    Ok back on topic. I have no real opinion on this other than that both sides are tainted.
    gladranger7 likes this.
  13. I'm trying not to get too far off topic, but that is funny. You might not be old enough to have perspective but traditionally the republican party was the party to defend individual rights. They promoted smaller government and keeping government out of telling you what to do. That's still true to the degree they protect the rich and big corporations but their concern of the rights of the average individual means nothing if it comes into conflict with the wants of big money.
    We3_MPO and crystaldragon13 like this.
  14. Bumping this cause it hasn't gone away and the administration in power is trying to down play and falsify the facts to the public with alternative facts. :confused:
    We3_MPO, MCSaw and fluffinator09 like this.
  15. Bumping this again. Drilling has been verified to have started again. Thanks to the current regime. Who is recently quoted to saying he wasn't aware of there being any controversy behind the pipline..

    *sobs*
  16. PetezzaDawg likes this.
  17. This is happening today!!

    Lakota People's Law Project is also posting updates and videos from the camp on their website as well as on their Facebook page. Lokota People's Law representatives are our eyes on the ground as the Water Protectors are cleaning up the camp and preparing to leave. The following is one of the latest postings on Facebook from Lakota People's Law”

    “It's difficult out here at the #NoDAPL camp. Peaceful water protectors are surrounded on all sides by the army Corps, ND Law Enforcement, National Guard, and the BIA Federal Police. We are facing a federal raid within 48 hours.
    This is the last call of the women—the people who have led this movement. Take action at LakotaLaw.org—contact your representatives in Washington and tell them you want justice now!”

    We are asked to call our representatives in Washington today. See LakotaLaw.org for a suggested message.
    AhsokaTower likes this.