Standing with Standing Rock

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Aikar, Nov 30, 2016.


Do You Stand with Standing Rock?

Yes 124 vote(s) 79.5%
No 32 vote(s) 20.5%
  1. Big business always prevails sadly.
  2. Not always but it certainly helps when you have the president of the for now free world in line to make some big bucks off it. Yep.. as it's been seen so far.. screw the people and the water :(
  3. North Dakota winters are no joke. It's where my in-laws live and you go outside as little as possible this time of year. The protest camps pretty much emptied out when the weather started to turn cold except for a few diehards and the tribal members. It's awfully hard to maintain political pressure when there's no boots on the ground to support your cause.

    Anyway, it's been a mixed bag of news coming out of ND over the last few months. Most of the folks I have talked to from up there started out pretty sympathetic at first but progressively turned against the protestors when they started blocking bridges and highways. Right or wrong, they're also really pissed off that they're going to have to appropriate an additional +/- 17 million dollars in the state budget to cover policing costs.

    Additional legal actions are pending against the pipeline but I've read reports that oil could start flowing as soon as late March or April. It's hard to believe it would be shut down after the fact. The people I feel sorry for the most are the tribal members. They walk away from all this with nothing and feeling violated while everyone else pretty much just goes on with their daily lives. It's also an opportunity lost to use this situation as a springboard for greater education on the various shortcomings of our energy infrastructure.

    PS- Apparently the camp members set the fires themselves as one last act of protest. Unfortunately, it resulted in a couple of explosions which sent some people to the hospital to be treated for burns. Quite an anticlimactic way to end things.
    Pab10S and ShelLuser like this.
  4. One important detail:

    I agree with the reasoning, but there are much other ways like better safety systems.

    Pumping fluids from one place to another through a pipeline is done using pressure. Not just that: controlled pressure, and because you know exactly how large the area is which needs to be crossed you can also easily calculate the required pressure to move those fluids.

    When a rupture occurs then the pressure values will change. And those can be measured and accounted for. So basically; the moment that happens the system needs to shutdown. Problem not solved, but the damage won't be too excessive.

    This is perfectly doable. How do you think they solve these issues in Japan (which is often struck by earthquakes)?

    But yeah, I fully agree with all your points.
  5. American infrastructure is bad. Issues aren't necessarily solved here. They are excused.
  6. I actually am in the area. Where the protestors are, well were, at this point, is a flood plain. In a camp of that size you have to have proper sanitation, proper waste disposal, and come the spring thaw (which can actually get pretty bad up here, everything that was in the camp will be in the very water they were trying to protect.

    Also, the intake they are trying to protect is, or was now at this point, phased out and shut down due to a new water treatment plant built in SD and is powerful enough and their reservoir's intake is placed deep enough in the reservoir bed to maintain water flow, even in drought. Which is why the new plant was built (there was a drought and because the old water intake was not placed deep enough in the lake, the region went without water).

    So no, I don't stand with Stand with Standing Rock and never have. Especially considering the tribe has been quoted on multiple occasions that they want the protestors to leave. AND And, it my state tax money that is going to go toward the clean up and maintaining a corral around the protestor camp.

    The DAPL builders bent over backwards trying to accommodate. They had all their ducks in a row in the way of permits and permissions on a township, county, state, and federal level. Not to mention, it's almost done except for the section the protestors keep leaving the camp to go attack.,video,youtube,collection&app=editorial&q=DAPL&nsa=eedition <<Local paper's articles in regards to the protest.
    And one of the many individuals I enjoy watching and their take on the protest >>>

    While there are plenty of reasons to dislike the pipeline going in - The primary reason ND/SD want the pipeline is to make the transport of goods and services into ND/SD easier. By freeing up cargo space on trains running around towns, through cities, and over land that is taken up by cars and cars of oil, we are making it safer in the long run and cheaper and easier for goods and services in our region.

    I would rather see renewable resources yes. But, until we really start working on viable oil alternatives (for lubricants, for fuels, for plastics, etc. I mean really we use oil for way more than just fuel), we aren't going to get away from oil. It's cheap. It's known to work. It's know for having all these properties and is the accepted 'fuel' for society since the 1900-1910 era. We'd have to redo almost 120 years of infrastructure, manufacturing, and production methods that have become the 'safe reliable method'. Oil use is what's known. Renewable resources at this point are an 'unknown' and now, since the crash under Bush that went on and got a smidge better/accepted under Obama, companies are NOT willing to take a chance. They will supplement what they are already doing with renewables, but they are far from reliant upon them.

    We would have to change society's whole relationship with oil to really see companies follow suit. And I don't see that happening until the oil ACTUALLY runs out.
    ShelLuser likes this.
  7. Or cheaply band aid and expected to last longer then they are supposed to and some how cost local or federal government 3x more then the actual cost. example of that is I used to work for the fed government digging ditches with a shovel for electricians to come along and lay cable. I made $30 ann hour 40 -45 hours a week and my health insurance 100% covered by tax dollars no copay or out of pocket cost when using it either. im 28 and retired. still have the same health insurance payed for by tax dollars
    Equinox_Boss likes this.
  8. 1 what does bump mean???!!! And 2 why would they do that why can't we use hydrogen power or something very sustainable like that (hydrogen not oil just to be clear)!!!!!!!!? ,-n-,
    Equinox_Boss likes this.
  9. When someone post "bump" in a thread, its to get that thread shown on recently active threads as it will appear to have a new update/post.
    I don't know why we in America don't pursue alternative energy sources.
  10. From my post above yours:

    I would rather see renewable resources yes. But, until we really start working on viable oil alternatives (for lubricants, for fuels, for plastics, etc. I mean really we use oil for way more than just fuel), we aren't going to get away from oil. It's cheap. It's known to work. It's know for having all these properties and is the accepted 'fuel' for society since the 1900-1910 era. We'd have to redo almost 120 years of infrastructure, manufacturing, and production methods that have become the 'safe reliable method'. Oil use is what's known. Renewable resources at this point are an 'unknown' and now, since the crash under Bush that went on and got a smidge better/accepted under Obama, companies are NOT willing to take a chance. They will supplement what they are already doing with renewables, but they are far from reliant upon them.

    We would have to change society's whole relationship with oil to really see companies follow suit. And I don't see that happening until the oil ACTUALLY runs out.
  11. Going along with the ones that don't give a damn about the people is not a way to change the relationship america has with oil. Polluting our water is not the way to do it either. We are already changing the latch hold the big oil companies have on us .. well we were until the person who didn't actually win by american vote got into the white house.. but i digress.

    btw.. yes, of course they had all their ducks in a row.. they can get any permit they want. Big business and money talks and can change the story you see so easily. I know people that were in the camps as well and I know about the crap that was pulled on them form the big business side of things including a lot of law enforcement. Before you say anything about people lying about it from the camps let me tell you a good number of those people were people of faith, reverends, ministers, and the like. Two of which are the reverends of my church.

    I was actually not going to comment at all but once I started ...

    I need to add that my opinions are just that .. mine .. and in no way do they speak for the rest of the empire staff.
  12. You digressed very far from the topic. I live here. I've actually researched the company. 10 years they planned, proposed and were told no. By various townships, various counties, until the building company had an approved, secured route, along a pipeline already in place that was shallower than the standard of today.

    The company building the pipeline did their due diligence, and as an individual who lived int he Cannonball area, I can tell you that the protestors were not of the tribes in the area. But people from Alaska, Hawaii, Florida.... they were out of staters. They came to a state, to a land that was privately owned, set up camp illegally, and when they were told to leave cried infringement of free speech.

    They exercised their free speech, but they want freedom from the consequence - the precious water they were trying to protect will be polluted by those items left behind. The local news ran an add for the shelter in the area, that had picked up 12 dogs from the camp and warned individuals to NOT try and capture any stray dogs in the area, to leave it to the shelter, because 3 had distemper and had to be put down.

    Money that could've gone towards after school programs and public services, is being diverted to repair a bridge damaged by protestors, as well as the cost of paying for all of the food, shelter, and man hours spent by, not only local-to-the-state police forces, but neighboring state assistance as well.

    If you know someone from the camps, then you know about the sewage pits built into a flood plain, garbage pits that have to be dug up and collected before it's washed into the river.... That precious river that your 'friend's were trying to protect.

    The pipeline will be completed. And I hope your friends were smart enough to go home when the warning of the blizzard came through. Otherwise, I hope that they still have all their fingers and toes. North Dakota Winter doesn't play around.
    ShelLuser likes this.
  13. none of it really matters now.. too late
  14. It actually does still matter because the environment all these individual's came to protect is going to be cleaned up using my tax dollars. That's money taken away from schools in my area. That's an ecosystem that's set back because people couldn't be bothered to look past Facebook, twitter, forums like these, and their nose.

    They reacted with emotions, read to respond like you are now, and didn't read or research to comprehend.
    ShelLuser and _Devil__ like this.
  15. You're absolutely right. It is in no way easy to make a switch like that and in no way cheap. I can absolutely understand your viewpoint and the viewpoints of the companies you mention.

    That said, it's also these complicit viewpoints that make the changes you describe impossible.

    Yes: those 120 years of infrastructure, manufacturing, etc. are going to have to be undone, bit by bit. Yes: the research is going to have to be put in to find alternatives. Yes: the public (whether people like you who do your research or a rag-tag group of protestors) are going to have to provide the push to force those companies to change, one way or another.

    What needs to not happen is for people to roll over and give up because the task seems too difficult.

    Oil is putting a strain on our world; the drilling has hurt our natural environment in endless ways. My heart breaks to picture the results of that oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico; completely unnecessary, utterly destructive to one of the most necessary ecosystems on our planet: the ocean. And as you said, it's not renewable: we're causing all this harm under a ticking clock, counting down until our ways bite us back.

    If we wait until we run out to start thinking about changes, we're going to be in deep trouble.
    If you want change, I'd encourage you to think less about the destination of your tax dollars and more about what you can do to help put the change in a better direction. If what the protestors did was wrong in your eyes, don't blame the action but the execution, and find a way to better accomplish the aim. If you don't bother to actually work toward a goal that seems even as much of a long shot as this, all your "research and comprehension" is worth absolutely nothing, when it could be worth a large, large amount if used.
    crystaldragon13 likes this.
  16. It is expensive to change stuff because the big companies own apart from the oil also minerals. Wind, solar and other form of clean energies existed long before oil was used as fuel. It is not more expensive. It is just owned by the wrong people. If we used other sources of energy instead of oil 100 years ago it wouldn't have been more expensive. It would have just been more power to the people, and if the elites can't make you depend on them, why choose that over oil which they control. Control is the key. Our forefathers allowed this to happen and now we are paying a hefty price. Read, research, ask and turn of the tv.
  17. How is that a complicate veiwpoint? It's a cold, hard fact.

    I have to worry about my tax dollars because of what the government doesn't do. It's not rolling over and giving up. It is researching and following the money trails. I would love for politicians to wear NASCAR suits displaying their sponsors. But that requires getting that bill passed which is no easy thing. Acts are multiple bills bundled together.

    We're not a democracy, were an oligarchy and the sooner everyone realizes that the better. But that requires people to look past what they see.

    As for change in the right direction you're talking cash to make the change which requires tax dollars put towards research instead of the latest military tech. But that's me thinking about where my tax dollars and yours are going.

    As for renewable sources, yes they existed before but lobbying and money pushed oil to the forefront. Carnegie, Rockefeller.... They pushed it though for their companies for their profits and because it worked for them it became the norm.

    It's the same with the lumber/hemp industry and cannabis... Cannabis was a alternative to hemp for ropes and building materials. Cannabis is considered a schedule one narcotic with hefty federal funds and for what? Because of lies, slander, and propaganda because people didn't look past their noses and took things at face value.
    ShelLuser likes this.
  18. Again, I'm not saying that your views are incorrect. You are right to be realistic about the forces behind much of the government, and your point about America's spending on the military (which is absolutely absurd, when compared to spending on education and other areas) is a good one.

    However, let me ask you a question: perhaps I'm incorrect, but based on what you're saying, where has "researching and following the money trails" gotten you? What have you done with that? My current understanding is that you've researched, discovered the unfortunate truth of what is done with our money, and simply decided the government is faulty without thinking about doing a thing about it.

    Money is a strong motivational force, and that is a sad truth. However, to be so cynical to believe that it is the only force and that nothing can be done by a common person to chance the course of America and our lives, well, that is far sadder.

    This is where I believe your viewpoint is immensely flawed: you are intelligent and observant enough to note these flaws in our country and these areas that can be improved, and yet you indicate that there is nothing you can do to improve them. And that, of course, is wrong.

    "Complicit" is a strong word:

    That's the definition. I call your viewpoint "complicit" because it is the thousands, millions of people who choose to have beliefs like yours, who choose to see our current government and our current lives as unchangeable "fact," who make it possible for that fact to persist. It's a choice for inaction.

    To be complacent in issues like this is easily in some ways to be complicit.

    Now, to connect this back to Standing with Standing Rock and why this is all relevant. You choose (and yes, it is a choice) to look at the protestors, note their mistakes, and hurl the incident onto the huge pile of negativity that makes up the problems with our government and country that you have outlined.

    Instead, I suggest looking at the protestors, nothing not only their mistakes but also their successes, applauding the better aspects of their effort, and thinking about what you could change in their method to fight a fight that you believe is worth fighting rather than assuming it's a losing battle before you even try.

    tldr; If you don't like something, go change it in any way you can rather than assuming change is impossible.
  19. Seeing posts about the protesters led me to researching the oil pipeline beyond the cause of the protest and thinking about, where it was coming from, where it is going to, and why.

    The affect the protesters had on the protest site is nothing when compared to the depth and scale of destruction that the open pit mining and shallow well extraction(linkedy, link, link) they are doing in the Athabasca River region appears to have had. A few acres of land with trash on it on one hand compared to stripping sand and gravel containing oil out of hundreds of thousands of acres of land and spitting out the leftovers onto the surface to be washed into the river system running through its middle and into its underlying water table.

    Why are we sending it over 2000 miles to refine it when we have other pipelines in place instead of refining it locally? I heard about this type of oil a long time ago but it has only been in recent years that the price of oil has been high enough to make it profitable. I am now seeing articles that there is too much and some companies like Shell are backing away. Over nurturing other alternatives this may be less expensive in the short term for energy companies but consumers pay whenever there is a problem with a pipeline or refinery in higher prices as well as taxes to clean up long after companies have sucked the value out of land then run away with bags of cash.

    It is unfortunate that locals might have to pay for cleanup at the protest site. The value of drawing national attention to the issues surrounding this isn't tangible but I think the cost of the protest is much lower than the benefit we may eventually have from it. Alternative energy is already snowballing in spite of official policy and corporate resistance. I've already felt that we should be trying to move towards using more renewable energy where possible and saving fuels like oil and coal for things like medicine, lubricants, and plastics. Now I feel even more that we need to. Learning more about the Keystone pipeline project and the problems surrounding it has caused me to try and gain a better real world understanding of the current issues and challenges of where we are at and where I hope we can go with them.
  20. Researching the money has gotten me out to vote on the issues and actually voice them to the people making the choices in our government - congressmen and women. I did my part. I find that far from complicit. I also have been spending my full time hours working in the government building so I get to talk with these people every day. I write to the ones I don't see, I use the methods of contact listed to voice my opinion.

    It's not really cynical to call the spade a spade. I find it factual. Most of the decisions made by government officials are all about money - Prime example is the fit being had by various groups over Trumps golf trips, the money being spent on security for his family and it's current living situation. Granted that fit is a bit unfounded as when you look at the broader picture it is literally 1% of the current spending of the government. We really need to talk about that damn military budge and why we're buying more weapons instead of spending it on things to improve the lives of our citizens... or this bloody stupid wall he wants to build... Come on use that to give some funding to PBS, or to dump back into Social Security and Medicaid/Medicare where it was taken from in the first place.

    I don't see any of this as cynical. I just see it as logical and factual. I'm 30 years old, I've seen what the baby boomers generation did, followed by mine and now the latest one coming up. I've learned through research that calling the spade a spade is the only thing that stops me *from* being complicit. Letting this lie and walking away from an argument because someone disagrees with you or name calling is complicate. That's giving in and following the crowd. I can't do that anymore.

    I have my place. I have plans that once I get property I'm becoming as off the grid as I can because that's how I cut costs for myself and how I make the right changes.

    I'm not allowed to install solar panels at my apartment that can also heat my home, I'm not allowed to have a garden or raise chickens, I'm not allowed to have cows and goats here.

    Never once did I state that change was impossible. Just that it's not plausible in the greater public's eye because they refused to see it. It's like asking your grandmother why she doesn't keep butter in the fridge 'It's fine where it is/It's the way we've always done it/My mother did it that way.'

    People don't want to look past their noses. They don't want to think about why or how - why would they when it's the world they've known and it works for them?
    ShelLuser likes this.