My thoughts on the Empire

Actually you are wrong in thinking that. Except for the drama part, in which case, you are still mistaken. You might want to read the first paragraph of rule 10 here: http://empireminecraft.com/wiki/rules/

Please do understand that this thread lists my thoughts on EMC's flaws. It is in no way meant to bring offense to anybody. And of course, people have different thoughts

Pab10s seems to take horrible cliff notes

Gaws cliff notes:
Staff got upset because someone made a joke
Staff got upset because someone got upset that someone got banned
Both circumstances ended with an upset community venting on the forums
/notes

Edit: that rule is pretty ridiculous.

2 things

1. That staff member likely saw their in game patterns matched those you were mentioning and figured you were talking about them and decided to defend themselves. Also, from the quote you posted, I see no mention of "telling them to leave" or a response that is not in a mannered way.
2. This is the reason why I decided to post here. We are called the staff TEAM for a reason, which I'm sure you can guess, we are a team. Whenever a person from our team or even our team as a whole is being criticized wrongfully, we like to defend our teammates, not only because we are on the same team, but because most of us are friends (sure, not close friends, but we still have a lot of love for each other [not saying we don't love you guys, we wouldn't be doing this if we didn't]). If you saw someone pointing fingers at your friend, saying they suck and they are doing a bad job, wouldn't you want to defend them?

And I never said you said that lol
It was just something I wanted to add, like I mentioned in my post above.

Overall I agree with you, but the parts that I bolded are where I disagree with you as the staff member was defending themselves and nobody else

He said he sat there for an hour waiting for a response and got none.

A warning to stop would have been a response.
A warning to stop would have been a response.
A warning to stop would have been a response.

I won't repeat that again, nor can I possibly make that any more clear.
--DEBUNKED--

1. It wasn't a "challenge to the staff." The guy legitimately wanted help.
2. "When they're busy defusing the situation?" Again,

3. Third, see my comment above about no warnings and thus no responses. Again, I won't repeat it.
--DEBUNKED--

That doesn't excuse the fact there were no mods or Staff on at all. There should be at least one staff member on at all times, yes, but it doesn't have to be the same staff member each time, nor does a single staff member HAVE to be on 24/7.
And no. Mods are not "regular players." They are mods. With powers. That can easily be abused.

I think what you meant to say was "Mods are humans too"
and with THIS, I agree.
Staff can't always be on because of real life issues etcetera. We all know this. It's common sense. And you of all people should know that Staff are humans and not bots or in-game player AI's. We're all human.
Here's the problem: the major griefing problems happen when there's NO staff on. I tried to report an anonymous (as in, we don't know who did it) rail griefing in Sushi drop once, so I typed /staff to see someone for help and what do you know:

Choice of words when referring to mods (or any person really) is key, and I know the mods are adults with responsibilities; that's how Krysyy initially chose the staff that run EMC to make sure she could count on them, and I trust her judgment because of that. Don't think for a second that I'm assuming these adult moderators -- with lives outside the Internet as well, mind you -- should be slaves. That's low towards me, low of you, and makes it seem like I think lowly of staff. I'm not unhappy with Staff. I'm unhappy with Staff's decisions.

1. He never got a response.
2. HE NEVER GOT A RESPONSE.
3. HE NEVER GOT A RESPONSE.

/report is much more accurate and efficient, as Staff can take much more immediate action.
PMing a staff member on the forums is usually a lost cause, especially in the case of appeals, and it can get sent behind piles upon piles of PM's that go by slower at a time, causing even more stress for Staff. Given your huge, unadulterated support of the staff, then again: you of all people should know that Staff having to go through all those messages is by far more stressful for them in the long-run.

And someone can literally spend weeks or months or even YEARS on end and not get a single reply. I know of someone who was banned and gave up 2 weeks ago because of it. Again, I'm not a liberty to state who because staff will redact my comment, as they have done many times before with other comments involving player names.
OOH ALSO
LOOKIE HERE:

You apparently supported the use of /report, but after what I said you're now suggesting something completely different:

WHY--
WHAT--
WHY...?

Like how you're agreeing to disagree with the use of /report?

1. I'm not even going to bother quoting the rest of this. It's not necessary.
2. What gave ME the idea? inb4 assuming I'm the only one who feels this way or even slightly noticed this.
3. Gee, I dunno! Let's pull up some choice quotes, shall we?

I could name several more that aren't even on this thread, but I intend to keep it on-topic, so I will not include quotes from sources outside this thread. But my point still stands.

I agree it may get out of hand and rules may need to be enforced. That's not why we're here, though.
The fact the staff member in-question was supposedly overreacting (from what other people witnessing the event have noted several times)? yeah. THAT'S what most people seem to be overlooking here.

Additionally, IMO means "In My Opinion"
and, as mentioned before by another person in this same thread, it's been duly noted Staff can call you out for having just that.
An opinion.
Which doesn't matter.
Unless, of course, you're a Staff member.

Finally since you mentioned overlooking, I thought I'd get this out there: you overlooked a lot of things I had pointed out prior. To recap: This isn't just about one event. Rather, this thread was made with said event sparking up enough controversy to cause people to come forward with their own experiences. No one should be denied anything they want to get off their chest at this point. That should be their decision. You sticking up for Staff with little-to-no research of your own, as well as claiming no one else has done their research as well, isn't helping anyone to be honest.

Here's the full quote. Ill bold/underline in the parts where the this staff member defends others and highlight the exact spot that signifies that they are talking about others.

As you see he/she knew that they were getting close to what shouldn't be written so they made the correct choice and left the situation.

I am typically well read in the forums, so it is not that myself (or other staff members) do not know that these types of threads exist.

Having said that, there are reasons why we don't comment more often

I would quote specific aspects of your post I'd like to comment on, but that would take too much time and space.

Regarding the mute, all players in town chat were given warnings. We have chat logs to back this up. No, we will not be releasing those logs.
I saw -some of you- bashing the staff member involved in the mute, with some really harsh comments. This is pretty sad. It's low. That staff member is a person, all of us here are people. We have feelings, guys. Criticism differs from rudeness.

Regarding /report, forum PMs and contacting staff in game.
You said you wanted to report a griefing, but there were no staff online. As a staff member, I can assure you, we will take care of it if it's a forum PM or even a fake /report on an alternate account, if absolutely needed. Forum convos rarely ever get looked over. Inviting more than 1 staff member usually helps.

Regarding the AFK staff member thing.
It happened once. You don't even know why the staff member was afk, and honestly, it doesn't even matter! Also, would you rather get a "This player is afk blahblah" message or no message at all? I know I would see the latter as ignoring, whereas the former is a sign that the staff member was likely busy.

Regarding "mods are regular players".
Mods are regular players. They have access to the same gameplay features as any other player.

Wow! I know of someone who was banned, sent an appeal and was replied within minutes! Which do you think is more common?
And I've never seen someone spend years (or even months I guess) to try to get a reply, we usually don't take more than 48 hours.

Also, repeating the same thing 3 times does not make your argument valid, I M O.

Yes.. Yes.. Yes..

Have I said yes yet?

Perhaps that could help clear things up for everyone who is either confused, angry, or both about the situation. I will pull back my comments if I am found to be completely wrong, and I will admit it.

And maybe... [username here, since I can't say his name because there is apparently a rule against this on the forums] would like to fill us in on what really happened, either. C'mon, let's hear/see/whatever the story. Since I could very well be wrong, that would mean staff here have nothing to hide, right...?

What about my reply to Shel is "wrong," exactly? And how? If I said anything offensive then I'm sorry and deeply apologize. I didn't mean to offend anyone, but I myself feel like I have also been offended with other people's thoguhts about my thoughts, basically putting words into my mouth (and I'm pretty sure we all know how that feels), so I'd at least like to know what I said in offense to some people. If he DID in fact receive several warnings, then educate me and all of us? And be open? Maybe then I'll be able to respect people involved after seeing each person's side of the story instead of people involved deciding to (with Staff) and being forced to (with reg. users) keep things tucked away and hidden from us players, especially those of us who deserve a fair right to appeals and evidence.

Additionally, keep this in mind:

I never said they DO abuse their powers. I said they could easily BE abused.
You're all reading way too seriously into this and still overlooking several points I made.

-=- WARNING: Opinionated crap below -=-

Do tear this apart. I'll get a good laugh out of it.

What I see here are two things being blown completely out of proportion.

Punishment guidelines state a player must be reported for things like that to occur, and it appears you disobeyed a staff's request... yet another thing being blown out of proportion.

Is it safe to say... #SaltyBrother?

[Guide] Like Farming

1. Post a thread with a few things you feel are wrong about EMC.
2. Be sure to mention that the community is going downhill and isn't mature.
3. Wait for the comments about nostalgia and bad experiences
4. More threads will be made
5. ???
6. Roll in the likes

I never mentioned the staff member's name in this thread. I can't speak for anyone else though.
I mentioned the person who was muted only after they themself mentioned the incident on this same thread.
And how does calling one out or determining whether a situation was right or wrong constitute as "rudeness," let alone "bashing them for it?"
It's this kind of "opinionated criticism" staff cannot seem to handle, and saying it was "offensive" or getting hostile at players involved about it will only make it seem worse for Staff in the long run.

I never thought about inviting more than one staff member. I will do that in the future if necessary, but ONLY if necessary. I will take your advice on this matter and I will explain my situation the best I can while giving the staff full respect during this timeframe, you have my word. Thank you.

I mentioned one instance. That doesn't mean it happened once.
You could mention you had one player banned before, and even rightfully so. That's fine, but again it doesn't mean you hadn't banned players wrongfully or in error (of course, that's why appeal.emc.gs exists, right?), nor does it mean it's the only person you have banned rightfully so, either. I gave an example. Example =! the only instance of it ever happening anywhere.

And here, we have the other side of the coin. A lot of examples of right and wrong =! 1 right example.
Yet again, it doesn't excuse something that's intolerable, nor does it excuse the fact of it actually happening.

They also get 4 residences constantly, and these "gameplay features" weren't always like this.
Go back a couple of years and I bet you'll find once-long-time mods which have 5, even 6 residences.
Doesn't deny the fact it happened.

The thing I mentioned was that they could ban/kick/mute players. Y'know, things that staff are inclined to use when the time is right? Gameplay and mod powers are 2 completely separate things. That's what I meant by "powers."

No, but it sure makes it easier for the illiterate to comprehend.
People need to learn to read between the lines. The point I was making there was that people COULDN'T read between the lines.

On another note, SERIOUSLY!? If this is the kind of reply choice of mine you're seriously going to attack and pick apart, then it's rather cowardly and quite unprofessional. I feel like you're not responding to me with this, and you just intend to "attack me back." This thread wasn't made to be a battle between regular members and Staff, and after reading this comment you seem to believe this is exactly the case. This is all happening because of controversy between players because staff have a lack of communication with the players and they feel distant from them; one final slip up... one final nail in the coffin... one spark... and suddenly other players feel the urge to come forth and share their experiences. We're not trying to "attack" Staff, but with this comment of yours it sure seems like you're trying to attack us.

This "reply" of yours basically sums up everything all of us have been saying, been said, and are still saying about Staff.
This is why some people find Staff intimidating.
This is why they're afraid to ask for help.
This is why they're afraid to steer the convo in a different direction.

And hey, if you won't show US the chat logs, at least let the accused see their own evidence? What is so wrong with letting someone see why they were banned and withhold evidence from them? "They know what they did wrong?" This is a vain and incredibly hostile remark, as it implies that they deserve their bans like the disobedient pieces of grime they are, without any proof. "It's unfair to other people who are banned?" I think it should be fair for all people to see why they are banned individually (like, for a banned person to see why they are banned and them alone). You can't ban anyone for no reason. If you can, tell me that it's not proof that powers can be abused. I was literally THERE at the time when someone was permabanned for [Undefined]. I laughed it off and didn't think too much of it at the time (especially since the player WAS causing a lot of drama for a lot of other people -- not just me), but I realized if one person can be banned for reason: Undefined, then ANY ONE OF US can.

Oh believe me, you got my intent completely wrong there. I don't think there is any lack of staff comments on these types of threads lol. there are some staff that would do well to follow suit and let their emotions get the best of them on these type of threads. The most annoying is the projecting their own frustration as sonehow being representative of others "maturity" or some other catch all phrase that means nothing but, "i didnt like what you said so im going to throw a fit and say it's all of your alls fault."

Even more sad is how effective that projection seems to be on several members of the community. Members, not the majority at all but a few vocal members and then its taken as vindication and persists.

I honestly don't see how my reply was intimidating, but o k.
Players that have come to me in game know that I'm a completely different person in game and in PMs, I tend to think a lot more on the forums, which combined with some words I used, might seem rude. I promise this is not my intention.

I didn't want to attack you or anyone else, I tried my best to explain a few misconceptions in your original post.

Again, I apologize for sounding rude.

Side note: This is why I don't like to comment in these threads. It only leads to a snowball of drama.

*Reads every post to come up with response to all this*

Y'all need to chill out.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how well would you rate the necessity of this comment of yours?

I feel a strong wave of not only blindness to issues players have here, but also ignorance and basic insults towards not only the accused during an event (that should've really never happened to begin with and I think everyone would agree there) but also the OP himself. As if we're doing this solely for likes and mindless attention and we're all idiots because of it. Even though that's not what you said, you imply it pretty well in your "statement" here.

That's... eh... kiiiiind of a low-blow, dude. Not cool.

And for Arceus' sake, DON'T like this comment, because you'll be giving him exactly what he wants and proving him right if you do.

I think you're now mixing up some issues here.

My "Tell the whole story?" refers to Cory getting muted. That's because the comment you originally quoted came from a response to Cory about that same issue.

So sticking to that which I originally responded to: it has already been established that Cory got muted after a moderator did exactly that: warn to stop. Cory responded by making another joke, and got muted:

Debunked indeed.

"Should"?

Apologies up front but last I checked all of this is still a voluntarily run operation. No one is paying those guys so I don't think its fair to make comments which almost sound like demands. There are more important matters to deal with here, for example something such as real life.

And also easily appealed. Problem here is obvious: "abuse" is in the eye of the beholder, as can be seen in the discussion above.

Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this, because although what you say here is true it is not what I intended. Moderators are basically regular players.

Yes they have some extra abilities. But they're also part of the game we play and <shudder>: also participate in it.

An anonymous griefing; so nothing in progress. I can understand that you want the staff to look into that ASAP but your example doesn't exactly clearly showcase the issue here.

Also: no staff in-game doesn't necessarily mean no staff online at all. It wouldn't be the first time where there's no staff in-game but there is on the forums. So PM them there.

It happened to me once: there was a player with an issue, no staff online. But I did pick one on the forums. She didn't have time to come online at that moment, but she could signal the other staff. And for sure: not long after that a staff member came online, jumped right in and the issue got resolved.

So just because there's no one in-game doesn't have to mean all that much per definition.

Efficient, perhaps, but Accurate? You can only add one line of text in a report, you normally also need to report a player (which sometimes doesn't work, your comment about anonymous griefs now comes to mind). There are situations where /report is the better approach, sure, but that doesn't make this the better tool per definition.

"Unadulterated"? Assumptions, assumptions...

So just because I happen to agree with the staff in this particular case (muting of Cory) I now support them in everything they do? Assumptions like that form a really lousy basis to discuss on.

Alas, I can't comment on appeals because I've never been in one. But I don't agree with your comment that PM'ing staff is usually a lost cause. Especially because my experiences are different.

Question: have you ever experienced this for yourself or are you basing yourself purely on what the other player told you? And when did this take place? Because if we're talking "years" then I can't help wonder if its possible that some stuff happened before the "great EMC incident"; where this ban could have been overlooked afterwards?

Have they ever tried to contact the staff again? Have their tried to contact staff "up the ladder"?

The problem with these stories is that they're all very one-sided. And sometimes I can't help wonder if some players simply share such comments because they know the staff can't or won't respond to them.

Thing is... I can send an e-mail to staff saying: "why the <censored> did you ban me? I demand to be unbanned, and appeal RIGHT NOW!". Then tell all my friends that "I send an email to staff and they don't even bother to answer me" and I probably wouldn't be lying.

Note: I am not insinuating that this is what happened here, my point is simply that it is something we can't know for sure.

Fact of the matter is that people who find themselves on the wrong end of a moderator will be unhappy from the get go. And not many people are capable of expressing themselves in a respectful manner during those times. Been there, and somewhat done that myself. I guess you don't know about that small incident, otherwise you probably wouldn't have used that "unadulterated" comment above.

Let me guess: those other people were also those who got warned by said moderator? Because then it seems kind of obvious that they'd agree on this one.

But heck, even that is meaningless here: have you guys reported this incident "up the ladder", given that you seem to feel this strongly about it? Or aren't you planning on doing so because, as you mentioned earlier yourself: you believe that sending a PM would be a wasted effort in the first place?

Because that does put this whole thing into a completely different aspect for me. It's easy to criticize, following up on it is a lot harder.

Calling you out for having an opinion? Or perhaps for the way in which you expressed that opinion?

Sorry, but I have my own opinion on that one. (no pun intended).

You say people share their experiences, but so far all we got were mostly one-sided stories where in a few cases there was more to it than which was initially shared. For example; the fact that the moderator warned prior to muting was initially not mentioned.

Catacalysm shared his opinion that he felt that a certain staff member couldn't take criticism, but if you look closer into that "afk incident" you'll see that Catacalysm wasn't even involved. Sure, the moderator reacted but none of us know the real story behind it all. Most people only see "ooh, staff got mad at a player", yet no one I know off bothered to wonder why she'd react in the way she did. All some people see is "she's staff so she shouldn't have done that". Little to no research indeed...

So me sharing my opinion on these matters isn't helping anyone, yet you guys sharing yours is? That almost sounds as if all you care for is venting your own opinion on the matter and deem everyone elses irrelevant per facto.

Wake up call: if you really want to reach some kind of solution (or change) then it really helps to do more than just vent, trying to get to understand how other people feel about the matter is part of that process too. A very important part even.

So yeah; that last comment really makes me wonder if you guys are really looking to change things for the better or if you simply want to vent your own negative opinion and that's it. It sure looks that way to me.