Land claiming - Do it right

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by M4ster_M1ner, Mar 22, 2015.


Land claiming details / politics shall be discussed and worked out in the public forum

Yes 29 vote(s) 78.4%
No 3 vote(s) 8.1%
don't know 0 vote(s) 0.0%
don't care 5 vote(s) 13.5%
  1. Thanks chickeneer for bringing this up and acting reasonably!

    Land claiming - Do it right!
    EDIT: Rephrased with kind help from Perry.

    No "us vs them".
    No bureaucratic style.
    No fear-driven, negativity-driven decisions. Be positive, be brave.
    No excuses like "we work for (the majority of) people who do not / can not read / write / vote"
    No excuses like "there will be too much drama." This community can handle that.

    The core EMC community is here on the forum.


    Follow best practice decision making process:
    - Inform the community about the issues in good time
    - Collect ideas, suggestions, leave enough time to get best of it, prepare solution(s)
    - Present solution(s), call for comments, acknowledge comments and ideas
    - Organize voting if needed, respect calls for voting
    - Add a cycle if needed (new issues and/or new aspects)
    - Decide based on all of the input, give sincere reasons
    - Inform the community about schedule and the implementation with each step

    Put this community to work. This produces quality decisions and also makes the community strong. Keep it transparent.
    Make this fair play and quality work!
  2. I'm lobbying here for a better and for a transparent decision making process regarding decisions that affect community life on EMC - especially around important outstanding changes like land claiming in the Frontier.

    I do not want to intrude into Stralis' / Aikar's business decisions.
    I'd like us, EMC community, to actively make EMC better.

    The best part of EMC is the community.

    I think that it is in the best interest of the EMC community to support Starlis - but also to ask for quality and transparency -

    - especially in decisions that are (more) in the community domain and that greatly affect our gameplay and the community life on EMC - like land claiming in the Frontier.

    I'm inviting all members to participate and contribute to make this as good as possible.

    This thread is neither about DT nor about specific issues around land claiming - but about the decision making process that will get us there.

    Please vote and comment.
    AnonReturns, BreezyMan and AlexChance like this.
  3. I think it's very important for the community's opinion to be taken into account when decisions about changes of gameplay are made. After all, we (the community) are the ones who are playing. Of course there is always going to be disagreements, but without discussing the issues in depth, everyone's opinions (and more importantly, why they have that opinion) will never come to light.
    However, all changes are entirely in the hands of the staff, and I think everyone should trust them to make the right decision in the end. Since most of the changes to the server have done nothing but benefit it (in my opinion, others may beg to differ), and I don't see why that will suddenly change. But I do believe that a lengthy community discussion can uncover any possible faults in any ideas present :)
    This post was not specifically about the process of making decisions about DT or land claiming, but rather about the process of implementing new features to EMC in general.
    ShelLuser and M4nic_M1ner like this.
  4. So temped to discuss DT :) .
    Yes I think we should be able to claim land in the wild, this should have been done a long time ago.
    I also think we should pay something in the way of rupees and not real money for this as part of some perk.
    BreezyMan likes this.
  5. Who is making decisions?
    The "best practice" as described above reads "decide based on all of the input." It does not read "the community will decide..." This is an important difference. Aikar is the captain of this ship, so it is his decision in the end about where and how the ship sails. But he would be ill advised not to ask the community and use that input. It is Aikar who has started this practice of discussing issues and ideas with the community on EMC. (I do not know about JustinGuy, that was before my time.) I'm lobbying for support that this practice continues.

    What is final?
    No one forces Aikar to make "final decisions." It is not good to make "final" decisions. Make a decision, implement, see how it goes, adjust. The only persistent thing is the change...

    Who is really making the decision in the end?
    If we're talking service providing business, the decision is always on the side where there's money in the pocket. Generally, there will be a deal only if both sides agree on it.

    This would be a misunderstanding. I never suggested that.
    Check the "best practice decision making process" above.

    Why do you think so? Quality needs time, you can't rush that.
    Bitterness how, why?

    Check this thread and count how many good suggestions appeared just in few days.
    Again, quality takes time - but not too much time, this process can go quite fast.
    It does not mean that the whole process is needed for every bit of change.
    But it is much better to do it for big issues - like land claiming. Here, land claiming, there is enough time anyway. As it seems we have weeks and months ahead before the implementation can start.

    Really? What happened with "town growing"? There was no call for comments and ideas, and the thread following the announcement shows how much of input was missed.

    Before the decision or after the decision, this is the question.

    How do you think that would work? Forget it. Or write it in another thread, please.

    Shor answer: Nah.
    Long Answer: 1000 days AMA

    Again, you have (partially?) misunderstood my suggestion.

    Making EMC into something different?
    Do you like the community here?
    I do.
    PenguinDJ and AnonReturns like this.
  6. I voted "don't care" but would like to explain my motivation. Because it's not as if I don't care about the Empire and / or what happens to it, most certainly not.

    Although I can understand the urge to be part of major decisions I also agree with some of the above comments that we should also have a little faith in the staff and their capabilities of making such decisions. The other reason I'm a little reluctant to vote 'yes' is because... doesn't this risk taking away some of the surprise(s) when a new feature is launched?

    I think the surprise element on some things can be a major factor. Like the pot of gold (even though I understand that this isn't the kind of decision you're referring to here); some people had already given up on the St. Patricks day promo and wham, there it was.

    Well, other than that... I suppose it also depends on the kind of decision. I could well imagine that some decisions are best experienced yourself before you can form a good non-biased opinion on them.

    Finally... And here's touching a delicate subject (and I know it); but there will always be decisions which some players, or maybe even a majority of them, will not like. I don't think that can be helped. Sometimes that just happens; things happen around you which you don't like at all. It's part of (real) life, these things happen all over the place. So why not here?

    Sure; if some changes can be made to "ease the pain" a bit then I'm all in favor. But in the end there will always come a time where certain unpopular decisions will have to be made. And sometimes there's simply not much to discuss about it (depending on the kind of decision and the situation of course).

    So although I can really understand why some people would prefer to be part of such decisions and be able to share their opinion I can also see why this might not be the best of ideas. It really depends on the situation, the decision which needs to be made and the people who are affected by it.

    And with that in mind I voted neutral :)
    MrsWishes and Kephras like this.
  7. I respect your intent here, but it seems to me you're still a bit too hung up on the Residences discussion. What you need to keep in mind is, the necessity of that one kinda caught staff by surprise. As MrsWishes and others have pointed out though, ultimately we can trust that they'll take whatever action they believe to be in the best interest of the server and its players. Our input matters, but only up to a point.

    "Final" is probably too strong a word, but at some point you have to reach a decision, set a course, and go for it. Otherwise you end up needlessly debating the same points over and over, and nothing is ever accomplished. This is not what I want to see EMC become. It was clear before that some people simply would not be happy until they got their way, the way they wanted it, and were not thinking in broader terms. On that note:

    Aikar, end of story. Don't like it? Start your own server. Sorry to sound harsh, but that's the reality of it.
    You can debate, reason, argue, and disagree with any/all decisions as much as you like, but at the end of the day you are a player in the community. Being a voice for others is good, admirable even - however, don't confuse influencing a decision with deciding it.

    I think it's fair to say anyone participating in this discussion likes the community just fine. That doesn't mean they have to agree with you. The community here is different, from when I joined. And it will continue to change. People come and go, that's the nature of it.
    MrsWishes likes this.
  8. My key point here is

    Discuss the issues with the community in good time before making the decision and starting the implementation.

    On my side, it is much more urge to hear what the community will say about it, to get new and better ideas.

    Sure. Assume the most brilliant, genius, sincere and hard working staff.
    The community still has way more brainpower.
    Why not use it for mutual benefit?

    Sure it does, but we do already know about planned land claiming :)

    Of course it can not be helped and of course this can not be an argument against asking for and collecting ideas from the community.

    Aikar is the captain of this ship. It is his decision where and how the ship will sail. Not more and not less.

    Talking about the business, the decision is where the money is.
    I think happy community => happy supporters.
  9. Few more thoughts about this.

    - This decision making process is a part of a bigger picture, part of how we think about ourselves, about people and a community.

    - We obviously have some cultural differences here. Not very big differences, but noticeable.

    - The acting and deciding out of anxiety / fear plays an important role. This is a known symptom and syndrome in our "western" cultures.

    For that very reason I think it would be good if the community life on EMC would be as less as possible impregnated with that fear of being vulnerable. It would be good if this virtual world could be more free, more positive.

    Because trying to make yourself invulnerable comes with a high price - it comes with cutting freedom, cutting innovation, cutting joy - and cutting love.
  10. While I support the motivation behind this. (i.e. peaceful, repectable, copperative discourse) I would like to caution you against adjectives such as hollow and inferior. These terms do not, and have not ever represented universally recognized standards. They are very effective in polarizing opinion. Since cooperation and participation is at the core of your effort, please rephrase the effort in a manner that accurately reflects it.

    I support the idea and the goal. I don't support the chosen verbiage. Too polarizing for me. I decline to register a vote until the verbiage changes.
    Kephras, M4nic_M1ner and MrsWishes like this.
  11. Seems a bit petty.
    SoulPunisher likes this.
  12. Erm... is there a... well... is there a TL;DR for this entire thread or do I have to read the equivalent of an essay?
    Bro_im_infinite likes this.
  13. TL;DR:
    lern 2 red.

    Basically; land claiming should be done in the public forums so everyone can have an input.
  14. While I am declining a vote. I am going to participate in the larger conversation. I believe it's valuable. I also believe that leaving out polarizing verbiage will help everyone achieve understanding, and possibly even agreement on at least what are the critical questions that must be addressed in the settlement/outpost related system.

    So please Manic, correct any of my assumptions below.
    After you do so I will reply with other messages in an attempt to contribute accordingly. :)
    My assumptions about facts are:
    1. Regardless of what the community says, the owners of any Minecraft server (in this case Aikar) have the legal authority to do something different, unless somehow prohibited by law or contract. (a)
    2. In order to implement a successful system, the EMC staff needs to know what issues, subjects, and/or features are viewed as critical by those with current, and/or future, specific interests in the settlements/claims system. This is also true of those with cointerests in the town system. (e.g. is "fast travel" to and from town critical)
    3. Just because the EMC staff understands what people are saying doesn't mean they will actually implement it, nor agree with it. When the staff says "No. Move on." They mean "No. Move on."
    4. Objective factors such as expense, complexity, time, server load impact, schedule conflicts, and so on. are a part of reality. These may impact what happens, how much of it, and when. As such these are going to be a natural part of the conversation. Please engage positively.
    My assumptions about the goals and ground-rules are:
    1. Participants are being asked to contribute positively.
    2. People are being asked to, when available, provide concrete information backing up claims.
    3. Vague phrases such as "most players...etc." can only be considered of value when put in context, and said context demonstrates statistics backing up the claim.
    4. People are being asked to, when possible, acknowledge subjective claims/opinions for what they are. (b)
    5. Give reasons for opinions. Reasons are necessary for understanding and compromise.
    6. Avoid automatic gain-saying. (e.g. "No it isn't!" or "Not true!" with no reasons provided.) As above reasons are necessary. The converse, "me-too-ism's" without explanation add little value.
    7. As appropriate create new threads/votes. This will help with stat gathering...etc.
    (a) - In other words as democratic as we're trying to be, EMC is a business at it's core, and therefore subject to laws that govern running a business and entering into contracts. Those laws say nothing about behaving in a way that is liked by any specific part of society, no matter how big or small -- not even their customers, so long as contracts are not broken. With that said, EMC is also governed by economic laws, which dictate success or failure. One part of which, but not the only part of which, is keeping the existing customers happy while driving new business.

    (b) For example: Saying "I think... [insert opinion]" is a great way to indicate an opinion... Saying "The fact is...[insert the same opinion]" is a great way to alienate people you could have otherwise persuaded.

    EDIT: OK. I didn't wait. I hope my other long post fits the bill for what you hoped to achieve for discussion.
    M4nic_M1ner and MrsWishes like this.
  15. Well. I think you know my opinion. :-P Read the entire thread.

    Why? There are valuable explanations and discussions happening. It will help with understanding what's proposed, agreed upon...etc.
    Pab10S likes this.
  16. I expressed discomfort with the judgmental terms, gave examples, explained why this discomfort causes me to not want to register a vote at this time, and conversely what would cause me to register a vote. I all but voted yes. I'm even willing to give specific pointers should Manic desire them. In transparent positive discussions such things will be addressed. So I respectfully disagree with your assessment.
    Pab10S and MrsWishes like this.
  17. To not vote because you don't like some words? lel.
  18. In the virtual world where all you have to go on are the words typed out on the screen, a change in verbiage IS a major deal. The usage of certain words over others can convey an entirely different attitude of the message and I have to agree with what Perry says. Changing the word usage can garner more support because at present it reads like a demand rather than an opinion or suggestion thread. Opinions and suggestions will ALWAYS get more respect than a demand.
  19. I'm happy that you're bringing this up. I'll be glad to rephrase with less polarizing terms.

    Although, there is a difference and polarization between the "old" EMC, closed, secretive, "on need to know basis" style which is arguably not appropriate for a civil community and the "new" open style of communication that - at least that's my impression - is more Aikar's style and I hope will grow into a "new" EMC style.

    Inferior ... "less good"?

    Hollow ... without solid contents ... would "less than solid" work there?

    Perry_Stahlsis likes this.
  20. Words matter. Choosing them wisely is important - especially when making a persuasive argument.
    You are of course entitled to your own opinion. If it doesn't bother you, all well and good.

    Personally, I think the tone of this thread is kind of ridiculous.
    Freedom, innovation, love? Good grief man, we're talking about Minecraft here, not establishing a New World Order. I get what you're trying to say, but it is very hard to take you seriously when you start blowing it up into some grandiose idealism.
    Perry_Stahlsis and MrsWishes like this.