Those are enchanted items and therefore overrule that classification. I admitted I made a mistake because newsflash, I'm human. I was at work and going off of the knowledge that I had. I completely forgot that we had modified the rule in order to make it easier to understand for players and consolidate things for the wiki. No bombshells, just old fashioned Empire age getting the best of me. Sometimes keeping up with everything that changes is enough to make my head spin as well. However, the item is invalid in auctions and therefore the auction is null and void. I am updating the original thread now that I am home.
Thank you! And to think, I was worried about being in trouble for speaking out. I just felt it was kinda unfair since I couldn't find any rules that applied. If there is a stated rule, that changes everything .
No need to worry. Sometimes it's hard to remember the many changes that we have going. I'm not exactly the oldest person on the Empire by any means, but to put it in perspective: when I joined, there were 4 or 5 residence flags total and eggifying animals wasn't a thing yet. Sometimes all those 1795 days blend together in a big mush and I definitely should have double-checked the current rules before posting. But hey, I'm human after-all, and allowed to have some degree of mishaps.
The ticking tock has been around for longer than I have been playing. It's not as if you couldn't have seen this coming you know. And let's be serious: even if this was true then you would have remembered as soon as it hit you. Then fair play should kicked in and you would have stopped the auction. Instead the auction was only stopped after my message even though things already went unfair (new bidders knowing their limit). You do not change the rules of a game during the game. Yet that is just what happened here. So much for fair play.
The rule was changed on June 4th, 2016 The rule used to be what I explained in the thread. It took until Mob_Meal posted on this thread and I was off work in the grocery store on my phone for me to re-read the rules and realize that we had changed it 6-7 months ago. I didn't change the rules. I FORGOT we had already changed it.
But things like Turkey Slicers are also enchanted items, so can we also auction them off during the Thanksgiving event?
Yes. Since new years is around the corner anyway and we're in the middle of rules review, I'll look at changing the wording to clear this up even more.
Convenient. Accidents do happen, mistakes are made, no arguments there. But pardon me for saying that it's very convenient. Things changed without actually changing the actual relevant pages. Even though, and this is what I still don't like: you should have known better despite the rule change. Even Chin stopped an entire auction (UHC apple) because he realized (assumption on my end) that him changing the rules in between wasn't far. Fair play should always come first. And as stated above: changing the rules during a game (or auction) is per definition unfair. Yet that small detail tends to get ignored here. Alas.. I've had enough. When I said this season is special to me those weren't just words. But I will say this: it sure dented my impression that staff always has fair play in mind.
Beep boop beep boop..... Updating my software to reach higher expectations. Oo sorry just updating myself since am or staff are meant to be robots and not people. ...beep boop beep boop back to regular emc staff protocol....
Robots are not meant to make errors therefore it's pronounce Boop Beep Boop not that other silly version. I must have to reprogram you in that setting also have to try and figure out how to abolish your code for the love of rocks especially boulders hmm stupid glitches
You know for a long time - it has been pointed out several times in the past - that specific item and quantity rules within auction rules are one of the weakest and silliest point of EMC. The problems that arise from that part of the rules are caused by avoiding to make the rules properly - rules that actually have sound reasons behind them and make good sense. Do you know why specific quantity restriction were put into auction rules initially? What is the reason behind that? The answer to this question is the key to making better auction rules.
Yes, I do and I've explained it a few times to people that have asked. The restrictions were put in place in order to prevent the entire shop system from turning into auctions for singular or easy to find in-shop items. This: a) Ensures that the shop system remain the primary way of purchasing at low quantity. The auctions are intended to be a secondary market location for economy on EMC when you are buying bulk or buying an item that may not be found in shops. b) Limits the spam of auctions on the forums that crowd out the initial intention of the forums for threads and community interaction outside of the economy. c) Special item limitations were put in place after issues with misrepresentation and scamming players due to their lack of knowledge. I have a very strong idea of how to solve this issue that you will see go live in January.
Actually he stopped it because I reminded him of the classification as an Empire Contest Award item, which is not able to be auctioned. Rule was already set.
There lies the source of the corresponding problems and the key to improvements - I would argue that this is only partially true - even if it was one of the intentions, it doesn't make sense. No one (sane) wastes effort without / against reason. Having such consideration would be like telling the community "you're insane, you don't know what's good for you." In addition to the lines above - two problems here: - Buying and selling follows economic rules. Making an auction for a small item quantity does not make sense, because the needed effort around the auction puts prohibiting costs to it. There is no need for a rule, this regulates itself naturally. - People will choose what is most convenient and what suits them best as mode of trading. There is no need to "ensure", to apply any force there. Doing so goes against the community and EMC economy. - Would you really force people not to use an auction, even if it would make perfect sense to use one? If yes, then you owe a detailed explanation to the community about that. As far as I could find out, this was the real primary motive. When the auctions were introduced, "everyone" wanted to make auction and participate and this caused a flood of auctions, with many trivial or mock auctions among them. People wanted to learn how auctions work, they wanted to test, to play and to have fun. Instead of answering the needs of the community, instead of communicating the problems of the flood of auctions in a positive way, the staff decided to enact quite clumsy rules which they thought will solve the problem. They have just thought about their own problem with moderating the forum, and they failed to think about the needs of the community. Instead of adjusting the forum to the needs of the community, they tried to adjust the community to the needs of the forum. That's shortsighted thinking and quite a big mistake. They have created rules with several completely unnecessary detrimental side effects. The better way to handle that was - if the community wants to "play auctions" - provide them with the means to "play auctions". Until they've had enough of it. If they really want it, let them work for it. This is a valid concern, but it is disputable if it needs prohibitive rules. - You can't protect people from lack of knowledge, this is generally just not possible and trying to do that will generally just make more harm then benefit. - Kids are special case, but when you want to protect kids, you need to take care not to create disadvantages to them and to everyone else. A better solution would be to inform people what to take care about when buying and selling, about common pitfalls and mistakes - and that applies to auctions as well. Instead of prohibitive rules, it would be better to require disclaimers in auction posts, similar to disclaimers when trading spawner locations. For all problems regarding scamming and underpricing or overpricing, the best is to follow the rules we have IRL. It is wrong to disallow a tool just because it can be abused. The abuse should be prohibited, not the tool. Some items still need to be excluded from auctions (trivial example is non-EMC stuff), but generally, people should be free to auction what they want in quantities that suit them. Taking care about an auction requires quite some effort. The number people who would make auctions just to troll and mock is minimal - that small majority should not terrorize the vast majority in any way. The rules should be to the point, with as little side effects as possible, like "Do not create mock auctions." (Auctions that obviously do not make sense economically - small quantity _and_ small market value. I guess that would currently be somewhere below 5k rupees.) It is quite a problem when you state rules without sufficient explanations of the intentions and reasoning. Doing so creates completely unnecessary violence. Even if it is clear to you why distinct items are disallowed in auctions, it will not be clear to everyone, and people will see it as arbitrary rules. Arbitrary rules are a form of violence - that scares people, it creates uneasy, negative feelings in and about the community and EMC. You might want to share your thoughts with the community to collect opinions and ideas and to find out what the community needs. If you succeed to find out and answer the needs of the community, you are fulfilling your "Community Manager" role.
And herein we have the basis of the exact same conversation that every thread about rules, etc I discuss with you about comes down to: You are not the ENTIRE community. You are a SINGLE member of the community. This doesn't discredit your opinion, but while you believe that I do not do things for the need of the community, you are seeing that I do not do things for the need of yourself. When you say that the community should be free to decide the direction of the forums, etc, there are as many players that do NOT want that and they ask for things to be regulated. You see the over-regulation because you are, by nature, a type of individual that craves the ability to regulate yourself. Others crave the rigidity of a system in place. Others just want us to stop talking about it... However, as years of watching and working for the ENTIRE community has taught me: more of the community would rather have staff set limits, because they've seen the degree to which players will take things to troll the system, or simply because they are bored. Like us having to say that you cannot have a maximum bid increase limit on auctions because someone trolled the auctions to a ridiculous level with that...we don't make these changes without reason. The players ask for them. Now...I have ideas on fixing the issue that I see with custom items and smaller auctions from the point of view formed not by my singular mind, but from the experiences with the players, the staff, and what a good amount of time in the community has taught me. Am I going to make it were you can auction anything you want in any quantity? No. Is it going to appease everyone? No, that's impossible. However, it's going to address the concerns that players have brought up to me and what I see when looking over our current system from the point of view of multiple types of players. I'm not going to make a thread to call on opinions for something like this because it just turns into what I already know. There are auction players and there are non-auction players. One group is going to outweigh the other in any public vote or discussion. So I have to step in and make sure that those less heard are still being represented in the final result by being the objective one.
There's a simple answer to all of this. Shut down the Empire Shop and let the economy regulate itself. Then you don't have to restrict auctioning of certain items at all, and other problems will fix themselves. I don't where this idea came from that everyone deserves everything and no one can have a trophy if everyone else doesn't at least get a smaller trophy. Some things should be hard to achieve, rare, even occasionally impossible to attain or out of reach. Challenge is what makes life (and games) more interesting. If players are too lazy to go get what they want, or willing to pay the price because it's something rare, then they don't deserve to have it. I've made the case in the past that the Empire Shop should be restricted to new players, but the reality is that even they don't need it, if there were a proper instrument in place to guide them to player shops. Players sell everything under the sun, and everything a new player could possibly need can easily be found at reasonable prices.
I like your thinking, but I don't think it is the answer either. The fundamental problem is that economy itself is flawed per definition. It needs some kind of regulation. What is the ultimate achievement you can get in a free economy? Wouldn't that be to obtain total control over said economy, in other words: to create a monopoly? That's not exactly fair because only 1 player gets to control everything, yet it is the ultimate achievement nonetheless. This is why many governments have applied laws which forbid such things to happen, both monopolies and cartels / cartel agreements. On a side note: it's also why I'm personally so heavily opposed to governments "privatizing" certain basic necessities. But that's offtopic. Now, obviously the Empire works different from the real world. I mean... if I want redstone then I can just go out into the waste and get it. If I want food (which you don't need in town) then the same applies. But that doesn't change the fact that many players enjoy (or prefer) buying and selling items over getting these themselves. Well, to ensure that everyone gets a fair chance I think we need some cap on those. Because what about the new players? New players get a starting amount of rupees and items to, well, get started. I can say from personal experience that it's a very fair and balanced set of items and rupees. But in a free market this could change at any given time. If prices rise too high (for whatever reason) then new players should be given a little more rupees so that they can participate (at least a little bit) right away. But if prices go down then they need to get less because then the starting amounts may become too OP. Although not perfect: the Empire Shop is a good way to control all this. Sure, it has its flaws: like new players ignoring all the warnings and still buying things there and the (very) sporadic change of prices in the shop. But in the end it also ensures fair play, and helps the staff from having to micro manage the starting amounts for new players. I like your thinking, the Empire shop has also always been a love/hate for me. No kidding: at one time I actually somewhat accused EMC of "swindling players" because of it. I'm not very proud of this, it's a little embarrassing when thinking back, but I also won't deny it. But I don't think a fully free economy would work here either. And this is only keeping fair play in mind. What about players who would try to swindle others? With a staff controlled shop, even though they do use very high prices, a (new) player who knows a little more about the Empire can never be conned for too much. If the price for an item is too high then they can always go to the /shop. It's not perfect, but it works I think. This is a wild theory on my part and I have to warn you up front: we should not be discussing this too much here because it's offtopic. But I still have a theory: Mojang. To be more precise: their stupid EULA and the way they explain its meaning. Mojang even seems to consider voting rewards to be illegal if those can't be obtained by other players, unless they're purely cosmetic. Within that reasoning I think the same could apply here. But... It's a very far fetched theory of course. Not always. Last time I spend hours trying to get my hands on a Mending or Unbreaking III, even across multiple servers and nada. I don't claim that it wasn't out there at all of course, but.... But even so, I really think we need the Empire shop.
