[DEBATE] Presidential Election - 2016 (closing Nov 22)

I understand what you're saying but because I say we should get out of Europe, and I meant primarily militarily, and stop being involved in their affairs you are saying I hold them in contempt? Ya, that is not what I mean. So if I don't want the US to be involved and meddling in the affairs of another country that means I hold the people of that country in contempt. Right? Because if I didn't and cared about them I should want the US to be meddling in their affairs. If a country invades another country it should not be our responsibility. As they have stated whenever the US touches anything we screw it up and are universally hated. For instance, when Iraq invaded Kuwait. We should have stayed out of it. Some would say it was about oil. You think Iraq wouldn't have sold Kuwait's oil on the market to us or anyone else. Of course they would. Did we love Kuwait so much that we went in? I don't know why we did it. Did we love Iraq so much that we went in there? No one would ever say that. I don't hold anyone in contempt I'm just tired of everyone holding me in contempt. As absurd as that may sound.

*sigh*...
They technically are the cause

It's kind of amazing.

Instead of choosing who we want, we are voting against who we don't want unless you are going third party.
They each have their pros and cons

• Hillary Clinton
  • Con: Compulsive Liar
  • Con: Flip flops throughout her career to suit what's possible
  • Con: Will get destroyed in the general election
  • Pro: Is a woman
  • Pro: Shares some of the same ideas as Bernie Sanders (Maybe, don't know if she is lying or not)
• Donald Trump:
  • Con: Is an idiot
  • Con: Con artist
  • Pro: Saying screw you to the establishment even though he is the establishment

We thought the Republicans were going to have a shit show convention, nobody suspected the democrats. This general election is basically choosing who will screw up the least until the next one.

This post summarizes my current view on US politics in the most accurate way I've seen yet.

Hey... that'd be an incredible case of over-generalisation. Sure, I don't like the USA at all. But that doesn't mean I think all people living there are bad or something... Aikar and Krysyy are great people, and the place they live doesn't suddenly change that. We can hate the USA and their government without hating its entire population, just so you know.

I don't quite get why you all think Hillary Clinton will lose so hard in the general election. The thing with Trump supporters is, although they're loud, they're the least likely people to go out and vote.

If you think that she's going to lose no matter what and you don't bother voting, that's just letting Trump win, which none of us seriously want. You just have to believe

Fast-read last few pages and I've seen quite some of what I think are quite naive statements.
Don't have time / energy to discuss details, so I'll give you this.

• Politics is an art of the possible. There are ways to greatly influence public opinion and mental health, but still, the general public makes what is possible and what not. So to see what's possible future development, look at the people. Most politicians and army leaders without people and army are just a bunch of lunatics.

(There is a very nice recent examples how politicians and army leaders thought they are kings, but turned out to be just idiots - Serbia. And it's not because of US bombing them, the Kosovo war was just the last war they have lost in a series of 4 wars, and they would have lost it even without US intervention, it would just take longer and produce quite some casualties, and, what is the important thing, would potentially dangerously destabilize the whole region. So why did Serbia lost all 4 wars? Because Serbians didn't want to go and fight. The politicians in power thought they would, but they didn't.)

• For any war, there are two factors that are necessary and sufficient for a party to start or join a war:

1. Be able to start or join a / the war ("can fight")
2. Think that it will make gain / profit from starting or joining the war ("think that fighting will result in profit")

• There are virtually no religious wars. See above.

• As the economy gets tighter and tighter, or, better said, as people think that it is getting tighter and tighter, people are more willing to risk war for less and less potential profit.

• Politicians and army leaders like the power so much, that they are often ready to go corrupt and put people at horrendous risks in order to secure, increase or keep their power. But still, the final decision is among the people - will they take the risks and fight, or not.

• It is never simple, and it's getting more and more complex. The world economy is a giant mesh of interconnected strings, like a plate full of spaghetti, and virtually no one is able to make good prediction what will move if you pull on of the strings ends. Politicians are mostly clever people, but they tend to think they're super clever and then they fail miserably. And make the same mistakes over and over...

What to do?
Put your forces into education, knowledge, arts and culture. Treat people and groups around you in the best way you can. Don't participate in crime and corruption.

Trump will win easily, hands down.

Attacks:
He has no stop button when it comes to attacks. He repeatedly spoke badly of his opponents' families already -- how low can you go from there? He will keep pelting her with attacks and nicknames until something sticks and he will keep doing it. As soon as Hillary makes personal attacks, it will immediately backfire. Why? She has said before she wants a policy-specific debate.

Also, you can't hate Trump more than you already do. When you learn more about it, you can only go up. However, you can hate Hillary more due to the fact she is hiding and lying throughout her career. The list is extensive so I will post it as its own post below this.

I disagree. I hate Trump more and more every time his mouth opens.

I disagree. I think most people would want Clinton over Trump.

It is this exact reason why he's unelectable. He's already had his business shut down in Scotland and the Middle East hate him already for not respecting their cultures. We've debated banning him from the United Kingdom as a whole and our Prime Minister isn't exactly on good terms with him. If Trump gets elected, relations will other countries will most likely completely break down. I'm sure any educated-beyond-the-age-of-10 American knows why this bad.

On TPP:
"This TPP sets the gold standard in trade agreements" - 2012
She’s also taken a leading part in drafting the Trans-Pacific Partnership - 2013
But wait...
Hillary Clinton Opposes [...] Trans-Pacific Trade Deal - 2015
On North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)
Clinton [praised] corporations for mounting “a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA. - 1998
Another source
"I think everybody is in favor of free and fair trade. I think NAFTA is proving its worth" - 1996
However
"NAFTA was a mistake" - 2007
On Colombia Free Trade Agreement
Clinton reiterates opposition to Colombia trade pact - 2008
Until
as secretary of state, Clinton was personally lobbying Democratic members of Congress to support the deal - 2011
On Raising Payroll/Social security Taxes
"I'm certainly against [...] lift(ing) the cap on the payroll tax" - 2008
But wait...
[Clinton would] be open to a Social Security tax increase - 2015
On Assad
"Many of the members of Congress [...] have said they believe he's a reformer" - 2011
Until
"Assad was the principle [sic] threat, because his bombarding, and his ruthless behavior toward his own people, was going to create more terrorists - 2015
On lifting Cuba embargo
"I’m not ready to vote to lift the embargo." - 2000
Clinton said now is "not the time to consider wholesale or broad changes to our Cuba policy." - 2008
However
Cuba embargo is a "failed policy" - 2014
On the Keystone XL Pipeline
Clinton was seen as initially favoring construction of the pipeline - 2010
Until
"I oppose [the pipeline] because I don’t think, I don’t think it’s in the best interest of what we need to do to combat climate change." - 2015

On Deportation of Illegal Immigrants
Clinton is "adamantly against illegal immigrants." - 2003
But wait...
She has advocated an immigration policy that would go further [...] to shield some illegal immigrants from deportation- 2015
On Driver's Licenses for Illegal Immigrants
Clinton now Against Licenses for Illegal Immigrants - 2007
However
This time, Hillary Clinton supports giving driver’s licenses to undocumented immigrants - 2015
On Federal Gun Control
Blanket rules set by the federal government on guns "doesn't make sense." - 2008
Another source - 2008
Until
Clinton proposes using executive action as president to expand background check requirements - 2015
On Gun Ownership and Culture
Gun ownership, hunting "part of culture. It’s part of a way of life." - 2008
But wait!
Clinton said Tuesday that gun culture in the U.S. has become "way out of balance." - 2014
On Gay Marriage
"Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage has always been, between a man and a woman" - 2000
Marriage is "a sacred bond between a man and a woman." - 2004
In response to a question about whether marriage should be made legally available to two committed adults of the same sex, Clinton marked that she was "opposed" - 2007
However
After leaving her position as secretary of state, she announced her support for same-sex marriage - 2013

On Mass Incarceration and Minimum Sentences
[Clinton] explicitly attacked then-competitor Senator Barack Obama for being soft on crime. After the Iowa primary, her campaign said Obama's opposition to mandatory minimum prison sentences was an example of his out-of-touch liberalism - 2008
Until
[Clinton wants to] End the era of mass incarceration, reform mandatory minimum sentences - 2015
On the Coal Industry
"...we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business" - March, 2016
But wait...
"I’ve been talking about helping coal country for a very long time" - May, 2016
she says she wants to see coal "continued to be sold and continued to be mined." - May, 2016
On Her Political Leanings
"You know, I get accused of being kind of moderate and center," Clinton told the audience at a Women for Hillary event in Ohio. "I plead guilty." - September, 2015
However
"I’m A Progressive" - October, 2015
On No Child Left Behind
Votes for No Child Left Behind - 2001
Until
Hillary Clinton talks negatively about NCLB, wants to replace it - 2015
On Ethanol Mandates
Hillary Clinton against ethanol mandates, 'voted against ethanol 17 times' - 2000 - 2007
But wait!
Clinton stressed the importance of the corn-based energy product, saying the U.S. needed to work on "limiting our dependence on foreign oil. And we have a perfect example right here [...] with all of the ethanol that’s being produced here."
On Flip Flopping
Some people might say a person's opinion on topics changing throughout the years is understandable. Hindsight can allow for reflection and new knowledge or public opinion can help shape a new position on a topic.
Except that
"I have been very consistent," Clinton said, arguing her unyielding fealty to "the same values and principles" over her entire life. - 2015
Apparently it's possible to flip flop on many, many topics but yet also be consistent and stick to the same values and principles throughout one's life.

Sorry for the triple post, it was simple too big. Will reformat.

A lot of what you just said is down to a person changing their opinion as they get older...

This is much more than that. It is about judgement and consistency.
Many of the issues that she "changed her opinion" on are issues Bernie has brought to light.

I don't trust either Trump nor Hillary.

I'd rather have a liar than a fascist in office.

I'd rather vote third party.

A third party won't win with the way America's politics work.

Sure, show the establishment you want change (which probably won't happen lol). But if enough people throw away votes like that, you'll end up with Trump in office.

The way I see it, I am using democracy.

I do not want either candidate to be in office, so why should I vote for them?

Third-parties will probably never win. Typically there are 2/3 big parties in any democracy and people won't defer from them. Unless a huge following suddenly changes their ideals, third-parties won't win.