what is this thread? like a legit tldr im too lazy to read everything, the gist is that this guy thinks the mods are doing something wrong and he cant say what he wants to?
You should probably read it if you really want to know 100% what's going on. It's a long read, but that's because there's a lot to talk about.
*clears throat* Actually, Aikar handles technical and I handle non-technical. We work as a team. This would fall under non-technical, so I’ll be responding. Quite a few of the protections that you propose are outlined in the Rules. Full analysis below. The rules cover this. There is no reason to censor players if they aren’t breaking a rule. Stating that we will not censor people unless they are in violation of the rules is something that I can look at adding to the current rules document, but not worthy of an entire amendment. I will make it more clear on the current rules page that issues may be brought to staff’s attention. The suggestion box and pm’s are still considered the most productive manner to suggest new ideas or address concerns of the players, respectively. Although many players already know this, perhaps we can be a tad more direct in our wording. The ban reasons are public with /p. Any additional information past that is confidential and shall remain this way. If a player has a problem with the way a staff handled a situation, then they can pm the Community Manager for a staff review. Furthermore, public protest groups do not accomplish change. They cause schisms to arise in the community over subjects, creating a virtual fence for players to choose a side for. You state that you have created this document to resolve micro-disputes, but this creates an avenue for them to grow into major disputes. In addition, only the staff have the full answers to the reasons behind a ban, because of the square profile. Without making every player’s Square profile public you cannot truly claim a staff did not perform correctly and the action of a protest is therefore discredited. There will be no external elected committee overseeing staff actions because they do not have square and they will not be granted access to square. Without square, they can’t actually prove if the staff was right or wrong. If they were able to be trusted with that information on Square, they’d be staff. We don’t hold public elections for staff and we won’t hold public elections for a committee to police the staff. I oversee the staff and there are a very limited number of reported problems. The ones that do arise are solved quickly and efficiently in a private message most of the time. If you have an issue with a staff member, then you message me. ANY player has this right to address their grievances with me, whether they are 1 hour old or 1500 days old. If your issue is who oversees me when necessary, that would be Aikar. I have had very few instances where I needed to prove my actions to Aikar and I’m quite proud of that. This is already listed out just by his title of owner. Of course Aikar has the final say in anything. Stating it outright is a waste of words. As for the right to terminate any account for any reason, that statement will remain in the ToS, but it is never used, not the actual Rules page. Each staff action on EMC has evidence behind it. That statement is simply a legal safety net for situations that you have never been made aware of. It’s the ‘right to refuse service’ of EMC that all private entities hold.
I think this was already covered. If you have a problem with staff, then it is preferred that you message me directly though. Publicly stating a staff member’s name when expressing a grievance is slander and violates the rules. Therefore, it’s simply easier to handle in a pm where the facts are laid out nice and clear for me to look into. The ban reasons are public with /p and appear when the player tries to log in to EMC when banned. For example: We tell them illegal mod in the ban reason, but we won’t state the exact mod UNTIL we ask some questions. This is a tactic used by the staff to ensure that the player intends on telling the truth. For example, if someone gets banned for illegal mods and they message me and say they are sorry for using xray, I’ll ask them if that’s the only mod that they ever used. (Video at this time would show flying). If they lied and said they’ve only ever used Xray, then the ban appeal has a lie in it and will immediately be treated as such when regarding whether to allow the player to return. If instead, they fess up to the flying as well, then more often than not, their sentence is reduced. We have a method for ban appeals that works quite well. I don’t want to tell the player exactly what they said that was rude up front. I want the player to think back and recognize his own limits of rudeness so that they can stop themselves ahead of time next go around. It’s a far more rewarding ban appeal process. In the end, they are told exactly what was the problem and staff work with them to help them understand the limits for their return. This constructive process helps to build much better players that not only can recite the rules, but also know WHY those rules exist. If a player has a problem with the staff, then they contact me to address their appeal. Members that have been banned multiple times are subject to a vote ban appeal across all of the staff members. I’ve already stated why the committee won’t be happening. Every player’s punishment is different because every player is different. There is a guideline for staff to follow and each staff is trained at length to follow this guide. However, I’m not making that guide public for players to argue every point about at every turn because each line basically says 'use your best judgement if you think it calls for more'. Every situation is a little different and every situation is subject to contest with me if the player feels they were treated wrongly. If I didn’t make it clear before, ANY player can privately message me to contest a staff’s action or submit a formal complaint. As someone who has witnessed players paying others to vote yes on things, or logging in alts to ensure that their opinion gains more ground, I can tell you that this is a bad idea. Besides, As I’ve thoroughly broken down above, your first draft is nothing more than what a few extra sentences on the page of the current rules can accomplish. Doesn’t make any sense and opens a giant hole for arguments. Honestly doesn’t belong anywhere here and looks like it was added simply to mirror the American Bill of Rights. Pretty sure we covered this at least a few times now. Final conclusion, I appreciate the time and effort you put into this document, but the acceptable parts of the version you have presented that actually address rights of the players and do not propose an entire re-working of the staff infrastructure can be covered by adding a few changes to the current rules pages (added as of this post): Under Chat Rules, Do Not be Rude to Others: Be mindful that there are people with other religions, ethnic backgrounds, political views, etc than what you may have. Please keep these topics out of public Chat channels to limit the possibility of arguments. If you wish to start a discussion about one of these topics, please start a private chat with all interested parties. If you have a question about suitable topics for Chat, please ask a moderator. Under forum rules: These rules apply to each and every post on the forums. If a post is in breach of any of the following rules, please use the forum report button. All punishments are at staff discretion. If you have a problem with the way a staff member handled a situation, then please contact the CommunityManager system at cm@empireminecraft.com to discuss. Note: By following these rules, all players may freely communicate within the EMC community. Violation of these rules will result in possible revoking of this ability and further staff action, if deemed necessary.
I wouldn't want to be covering this but some members that I know, (You might know them as well) have had issues with higher up staff and the reactions I have been getting seems their issues were just swept under the rug. Personally, there should me a more stricter consequences for upper staff if such a "event" happens to others and more so, teach staff members to have no biases including yourself, so we can eliminate people feeling that way and creating these types of threads bashing on rules and staff. Personally, I wouldn't mind a bill so we can protest what we can and can not do. It would make this community more diverse in culture and bring us closer together. Of course many drafts would be needed.
I am unaware of the issues that you are speaking of due to the vagueness of your statement. Please message me in private to discuss further with some details and I can help out more. There is a difference between an issue being swept under the rug and it being found that there is no actual issue to correct. The staff members are heavily monitored for any bias and if there is any that cannot be corrected in the eyes of the player, then that staff member is removed from handling situations with the player that believes there is a bias.
First I'd like to thank Krysyy for taking her time and put some effort into this as well. I really enjoy how we had a good and healthy discussion here about the whole thing without the thread derailing. But to be honest I also think there's a little bit of irony to be found here. Because isn't this thread alone a prime example of just how much freedom us players actually enjoy here? PS: I'm also happy to see that I'm not the only player anymore who sometimes needs to spread one comment over 2 posts!
I've been following this conversation from the start and while there's a million and one thoughts and things I could have said, I've waited until this point to understand the information coming from both sides. First up, we're a community, so we always strive to make things better together, and that's one of the things I really like about this server. I disagree that we should exclude some members from making decisions because of how long ago they joined, and I also disagree that a full EMC Bill of Rights would be a good idea. But, as I said, we're a community, so if there's things that need amending, we can say that, and I know from personal experience that the likes of Krysyy will always listen to your ideas and help out where possible. In this case, I can see that Krysyy has taken your ideas into account and amended the rules because of it, and that's a good step. It's improved something, and that's why threads like this really matter and are important. While I said the full Bill is not a good idea, I too always like to improve, so if amendments need to be made to the rules, then they should be suggested and should happen if need be. I've always had faith in the Staff Team, and if I've ever had problems with the team or if I ever do in future, I know to talk to Krysyy and that my words will be heard and things will be sorted quickly and efficiently. Let's improve together, include the whole community and make suggestions where need be, rather than exclude people and have pages and pages of information that other people have to read to understand. The Rules page is one central, easy, efficient and easy to understand guideline, and if it needs amendments then those suggestions can be made at any time. There's lots more things I could say and lots of things and ideas that have been flying around in this thread, but I think I'll leave it at that. As you were.
SSRC, I was looking at that picture again on your "letters to Orlando" and that picture I thought was a flag around your neck, well now I am not sure if its a scarf. I sent the PM to you, which was friendly in every way, about wearing a flag around your neck and the flag code. You never responded. But like I said, I took another look and I am not sure if it is a flag now. Either way, you never responded to me through PM, but I knew you were active here. next topic I am a disabled vet. I joined the military and took my turn serving to protect everyone in this country because I believe everyone should have the freedom to make their own decisions and pursue happiness. I think this is good practice for your political career and the things you speak of in this bill of rights are well and good just not for this situation. In another thread you spoke of fighting for your people, standing up for your people. Now this thread about WE THE PEOPLE! Who are these people that are WE? I'll have no part of someone trying to shove their freedom and their happiness down my throat. My freedom does not end where yours begins! Krysyy, nicely read and responded to. I believe that certain information should remain at the staff level and we, the players, should learn to TRUST the staff. I managed restaurants for many years and did not always explain myself to my workers during hot times. In the Manhattan store we did $10 million on the first year, 168 seats downstairs and 500 upstairs. I did not always have time to hold someones hand and explain things. As we heard before" JUST DROP IT" happens because as a player we dont see everything like a staff sees things. As a player, accept that a staff member is not out to get you, stop being paranoid, and go do some mining or smoething. Catch that staff person the next day or week and talk on the side with them. I bet its not as bad as it was thought to be. Well, this would be great for an outposts bill of rights.
You talk about "the players" a lot in this bill. If you check the poll, the majority of players who voted are against it. If EMC was a real democracy, this bill would be dead.
just curious.... Alts live among us and acquire promos and rupees as well as get their own residences. They count towards the number of "people" on the server, like 100,000. Yay, we just hit 400,000 people time to party. That number includes alts, but we dont want them to vote.... hmmm we are suppressing the alts and using them for our personal gain while not allowing them personal identity and the privilege of voting.
Staff nominations are open to all players at all times. There was an old thread about this where I said the same thing along with the fact we watch the community closely to see people that would be good if they applied, based on community appreciation contests, etc all from the community and without an official election. If you think you know someone that would be a good staff, you're more than welcome to pm me. We are constantly looking for staff with no true limit. I would check to see if that player has applied though. A few nominations I've received were for people that have no interest in being staff. We won't state a public rejection reason for staff apps because that does not just lead to drama. It is drama and is public slander, something we have a rule against.
SSRC, I hoped you would not rush this. You have good ideas in your amandements, but they are more between the lines than adjusted and clearly expressed for this community. Consider also that EMC has been in "staff is the best and staff is always right - learn to trust the staff - don't disturb the peace and cause drama" mode for a long time now and that it has attracted players who just like that as is. Most of the players who didn't like it went on to join some other online community. Very probably only a minority here hopes for some change. Nevertheless - there is change! There are several good (and many less than good) reasons to like that aspects of EMC as they are and several people in this thread have described them quite well. Some of them: "If I would have (more) rights / more influence - I would also have more responsibility." "If people would have (more) rights / more influence then who knows what would become of EMC?" "I just like this staff and how they handle it, I can't imagine better" "If people would have (more) rights they would fight more and cause more trouble" "If people would have (more) rights it would all be less efficient" "EMC is a private group and they are entitled to do whatever the heck they want to us" "Look at other servers - EMC is the best" "You just need to learn to trust staff" Despite of that all, despite of the few sound reasons to be conservative and keep things as they are, I do think that advancing the "level" of the EMC community would do EMC good and make more people stay without causing any significant trouble for the majority of members who like it just as it is now and hope for "peace", "no drama" - and no change. Speking of changes - people generally don't like changes, so you will always get a "nay" in the first place - along with all possible "idea killers". Adjusting for that, this thread is actually a wonderful "yay" response That's why I think that you / we should first ask Aikar to provide a vision / mission statement regarding the community and then work in a team to sort the ideas and present them in a suitable way. And not too much at once. Step by step. I'd like to invest some time on this but I'm on a trip now and I won't have much time next few days. But really, there is no rush.
I wonder what EMC that is you're talking about because I most certainly do not recognize myself in this. Staff is the best, yes, in that they spend a lot of their time and effort into EMC in order to try and keep this place going. And I'm not just talking about the events and stuff, but also stuff going on behind the scenes. Just because you don't see some staff members as much or see that they're active doesn't mean that they're not. Within my movement of GRIP I've come across several staff members and I've seen how some of those handle grief reports. I've seen seniors minutes before the start of their event take off in order to investigate a griefing because at that time this was more important than getting ready. I've seen "unknown" moderators go completely out of their way in order to investigate a griefing, even getting their alt involved (that's all I'm saying about that). They're the best in my book. But hold your horses here: they're most certainly not always right. In fact: even within this bill of rights thread I think some staff member made a small error in judgment and so I contacted them about it. That's how I make myself heard. Trust a staff member? I do, but if I don't understand their actions or if I think some of their actions could have been done better then I speak up. "I'll just close this thread now", (random staff member) while I was about to respond. I felt that the action wasn't in the players best interest and I spoke up. In this particular case I also never heard back about it, but at a later time I noticed the player doing the exact same thing even though most of us other players (me in PM) told them how they should handle their particular situation. They ignored (so it seemed) and repeated. Here's a noodle for ya: was the staff member really incorrect, or did he know more than me which basically made his action look incorrect while there was actually more going on? Even so: I protested and had my voice heard, that part is for sure. So no: staff aren't always right. Do I often agree with staff, do I often think they do a good job? Yes. Just as much as I also often disagree. But I don't need a platform to vent my disagreement, I only need that PM button. In the real world you need a platform basically to make sure that your voice is heard. More than often will you be overlooked otherwise because others simply won't bother to listen to you. This however is not the real world, and I think Krysyy has given a very clear example above of just how much effort she's willing to put into hearing players out. Here's another of my brain spins: is this really about involving the community more, or could this also be about certain players who simply start to lose interest and some fun playing EMC and are now looking to shift their attention to other, new, regions? In this case the staff? Because the more I read, the most that idea zaps through my mind. You want to get more involved with EMC? Start small, one step at a time. I myself started small and trying to help new players, then I moved to writing guides and helping more players, then GRIP started and we went "underground" and helped even more players (new and vets alike (though the latter usually have enough items themselves it seems )) and that got me involved in a few griefing incidents. Where at one point a mod even asked me for my opinion on some things. So within that context I basically feel that GRIP has become involved in the aftermath of griefing issues. And I'm damn proud of that fact as well. Here's the thing: this didn't come easy, we didn't enforce this, we didn't demand anything, we simply started collecting items, keeping our eyes open for players who asked for help and then we stepped in. Big time. We didn't demand involvement, we simply "enforced" it by making sure we were there when it counted. Making us a group of players which become hard to ignore when people get griefed, one part of that is that a lot of other players will immediately point griefed players to us (another fact I'm damn proud off!). We don't demand respect, we don't demand involvment, I think GRIP worked hard and then more or less earned all that eventually. And THAT is how you get yourselves involved with staff IMO. By being there, by showing how it can be done and/or filling in the gaps. No offense intended at all, but I seriously can't help think that there's something completely different at work here. Just my 2 cents in my weekend rant
Our primary mission statement is written on the rules page and is as follows: Our mission is to have fun and create lasting memories on Empire Minecraft. There are numerous ways to play, whether you want to focus on mob hunting, Frontier exploration, being a major player in the economy, etc. On EMC, you get to Play Your Way! Our rules are in place so that everyone can enjoy their time on the Empire. Do your best to follow these rules and we can all focus on having FUN, like we're meant to. Our community fits the same 4 factors that psychologists McMillan and Chavis deducted in their research for any sense of a true community. Membership Our membership limits are defined by the shared enjoyment of the game of Minecraft and of EMC specifically. Any player, as long as they follow out rules, can be a member of our community. Every player, young and old alike, contributes to the community in their own special way to form a unique 'melting pot' of ideals, beliefs, opinions, etc that make our community extremely diverse in one way, yet also forms a bridge across these differences because at the end of the day, we all just enjoy a good game of Minecraft. Influence The suggestion box as well as my inbox are the primary avenues for this. Everyone knows that their concerns will be addressed if they simply message me. If they don't know, I've placed it in about 10+ different places all over the website so all they have to do is read. Suggestions to change the community are listened to. There is a difference between the need for influence and the need for control. Note that your idea does not have to be accepted for you to have an influence in a community. Your ideas, no matter how small, can spur the imagination of someone else who then presents an idea that is accepted. Integration and Fulfillment of Needs The need of the individual in our community is met through our current staff infrastructure. Players know that if someone breaks the rules, they will be punished as appropriate. This means that everyone will be playing the game fair with each other and no one has any advantage over anyone else. The players themselves have decided the limits of that punishment in a past survey. Shared Emotional Connection I've stated before and I'll state time and time again: EMC is the best community out there. EMC is second family for many of our players. Every emotional post created, every virtual ceremony I've attended on EMC, etc all show that our emotional connection is as strong as they get. On EMC you can find people that will listen to you spill your heart out over a bad day at work (guilty) or how terrible you think you did on a test. I've seen people give (and have given some personally) advice on handling real world scenarios when someone else just needed a reassuring hand to hold. So my point is this: What true change are you willing to accomplish here? A complete reworking of the staff infrastructure will not be happening so I'd advise that you strike that from your manifest. If that is your true goal, ask yourself why, then PM me if there is some true underlying reason that you cannot accept the staff structure as it is currently. Our community will continue to grow and develop overtime so small changes are obviously going to happen (and have happened), but don't confuse that with the need for a completely different change at the foundation of our great community.
same disclaimer as my last post on this topic I have never asked to be trusted. I also don't expect people to understand all of my actions because they don't have all the info. Will they ever have all the info ? No. Will I explain every desicion I make ? Yes. But not to you. Krys mentioned it above and I spoke of it but I'll say it again. Moderators are the most watched and moderated players in the entire EMC world. I have to think three times before I post something now because people take what we say as law. I've messaged krys to ask if it's proper for me to post something. EVERY action I take using moderator tools is tracked and reviewed. I've had krys message me while she is working her RL job about something I did. I have involved her on every one of my ban disputes/ appeals. She has taught me several things when it comes to dealing with people and I have been doing it far longer then she has. Man that paragraph went crazy Okay so what I was trying I say was. I won't ask you to trust me. I won't ask you to trust the system. What I will ask is that if you have an issue please feel free to pm someone about it. Pmcm.emc.gs Moderators are players also. Most of us have Alts. We all watch our inboxs and square. Even if I'm on an alt I can always log the main on and handle an issue. Why don't you as players try and help other players a little more instead of harping on mods. You get on mumble and ignore new players in town chats. You spend more time complaining that it wasn't like it was 5 years ago instead of seeing how it's awesome now. I have dealt with almost everyone who has posted in this thread on more then one occasion. M4nic I would even call a friend. Why you all think that we are out to get you and want to hurt your feelings are beyond me. second disclaimer: it was pointed out that it may seem like I'm attacking someone. I am not. If it seems that way it is not my intention. I would like nothing better then to be all your friends. ( also I'm workin and things for crazy so I lost track of my own post. It happens )
