Macro Limitation Crafting/Trading Community Poll

Discussion in 'Suggestion Box Archives' started by azoundria, Jul 18, 2016.


What Should The Crafting/Trading Macro Policy Be?

One-to-one. 5 vote(s) 20.0%
Trades/minute or crafts/minute. 20 vote(s) 80.0%
  1. It's absolutely awesome to see such thought and discussion being put into the macro policy. This is in direct response to the recent macro clarification thread Macro Mods and You: What are the Limits?

    Macro policy has a large effect on the economy and the play experience. Recently, a lot of prices have dropped as a result of macro policy violations. So it affects everyone, not just macro-users. The thread linked above mentions three policy clarifications including AFK, click rate, and one-to-one setup. This poll is specific to the third policy clarification:
    Allowing macros provides a lot of benefits for players, including:
    • Very useful life skills like coding and scripting.
    • A new way to play the game, something new to explore and learn.
    • Reduced hand strain.
    • Reduced wear and tear on the keyboard/mouse.
    While an improvement, the clarification still allows macro players a competitive advantage over non-macro players. By simply pressing a key over and over, they can instruct their macro to craft or trade items at a rate faster than reasonably possible via normal non-macro gameplay. This means that in the same hour, a macro player could craft or trade substantially more items than a non-macro player.

    Secondly, this policy is difficult to enforce. A macro user may easily simulate the keypresses by creating randomized delays between actions. In that way, the entire policy would be circumvented, and staff would have difficulty detecting this to ensure a fair play experience. This means additional time and energy of staff spent on this policy, when they can be instead doing other things (or having a good time playing Minecraft).

    Thirdly, the policy has hidden complexity. For example, it raises a lot of questions about input versus output, what counts as a craft action, and others. Although these questions have been answered by staff, this additional complexity makes it harder for macro users to comply, increases the risk of non-compliance, and takes up additional staff time and energy to explain these requirements.

    Fourthly, for macro users, this policy creates additional complexity in the scripts. As well as adding largely to the effort for existing macro users, this makes it harder for less experienced players to develop and use macros. This, in turn, increases the barriers for other players who may be interested in using macros, to be able to use them.

    Instead of having the one-to-one requirement, I would like to suggest having a crafts/minute or trades/minute limit. This would be set based on the rate that a non-macro user can craft or trade items. In this way:
    • The limit is fair for everyone, because the output is the same for macro versus non-macro users.
    • It's easy to enforce. Staff just look at the time between trades or craft events. It could also be enforced automatically and kick players who craft or trade too fast. That would put the staff enforcement effort required to almost zero.
    • The rules seem simpler (to my mind at least).
    • Macro users need only add appropriate delays in their scripts, and don't need to worry about accepting additional key presses, etc...
    • Macro users get to relax their fingers which is why they made a macro in the first place.
    • The AFK rule still requires that players be in front of their computer. This requirement is much easier to enforce by simply PMing players if suspected they are AFK and using a macro.
    I've seen the alternative come up in the thread a few times so I wanted to put it to a poll so I could find out the official opinion of the community. Thanks for reading and voting!
  2. I do have to agree... it can help with teaching people those.
  3. Bumping this. The poll clearly shows that we agree that something needs to change here.
    BenMA likes this.
  4. I'm not voting because my opinion is more or less opposing the whole macro addition in its entirety (as can be read elsewhere).

    But I do want to share some possible issues I see...

    "kick players automatically when they craft too fast", too fast according to who? No offense but I think that's a really bad idea. Players are already having negative affects from getting automatically kicked during lag spikes because the system think's they're moving too fast. In this scenario the same could happen and worse: you'd also risk dropping your items because of it. Not much fun if you were crafting in a public area.

    "It's easy to enforce. Staff just look at the time between trades or craft events.", I'm not too sure. Because what happens if you simply craft dozens of items in one go? Moderators can't look in your inventory so there wouldn't really be much they could check there. Then you put said items into a chest (which causes a delay between crafting events) and you do the same thing again.

    Also: how long does it take to trade with a villager? Wouldn't you agree that it heavily depends on the situation and the items being traded? So it seems to me this rule would only apply to crafting, as such it would be yet another rule to an already seemingly endless list.

    I can't help think that all this does is make it even more easier on macro users while adding extra constraints on vanilla users. Now I'd risk getting punished if the system thinks I'm crafting too fast? Worse: I could lose all the items I was crafting when in the wrong place?

    I'm not really in favor of all that to be honest.
  5. Why can't we, for once, accept what Krysyy and the staff team has said? For pete's sake, it is a simple rule, that isnt that hard to follow.. You follow the rules, staff don't have to worry about checking crafting logs, simple as that.
  6. Because it makes no sense and is irrational?
    Vortixin likes this.
  7. With the users of Macro, of course it is :p
    Acemox2k likes this.
  8. Macros have been a part of EMC for years (and have actually been suggested on numerous occasions without restrictions). To suddenly employ strict limits doesn't make any sense and puts an abrupt halt to what players have been doing since the macro mod was first created.

    Last month's thread was the first time I've actually seen any hard limitations on what you can do in terms of crafting with the macro mod.
    Vortixin likes this.
  9. But if some functions arent meant to be used on EMC, but are being used, then yes, there needs to be limitations. Without them, the economy, and not just the economy, would be ruined. Players can craft up DCs of blocks with a press of a button, is that fair? Does it even come close to being fair?
    JesusPower2 and ShelLuser like this.
  10. I would like to inform you that this 'craft up to DCs of blocks with the press of a button' thing has been going on for years and the economy hasn't seen any direct disservice as a result of that.
    M4ster_M1ner, Vortixin and slash14459 like this.
  11. Please let's not turn this into an endless Macro discussion (there's another thread for that), it's not really fair towards Azoundria's suggestion.

    If you want to discuss something discuss the suggestion instead.
  12. The suggestion is directly regarding the macro policy - it's just a more thought out version and constructive manner addressing one side of the other thread.
    Vortixin likes this.
  13. I have been watching both sides of this Macro -vrs- NonMacro (or some such limit). To say we have been enjoying the use of it till now and had no regulation of it or scrutiny of it before is not a valid argument. As stated above, the issue is before the staff and has been deemed to be in need of attention. BOTH sides of the debate should think of how to bring it in to the middle. Think on what would work and bring a solution for everyone to think about.

    When reading this remember the EMC server is a dynamic, changing server that accommodates the needs of the staff AND the community. The staff are an active and hands on part of our EMC world that work on balancing game play and enjoyment value of all players. I see an effort to allow Macro users and NonMacro users play and not have a vast separation in crafting time between the two.

    Yes, a Macro will give you an ability that you will not have as a vanilla (nonmoded) player. But that does not mean the player should be given free reign to use Macros that staff has deemed to give unfair advantage on the EMC server. Things change as time goes on and while I did not wish to move to 1.9, I had no choice. Now staff is deciding that Macros need to be reigned in a bit, deal with it. Help staff come up with a workable solution that is fair for everyone.

    I do not use Macros and all my chests have product that is crafted by hand, one click at a time.

    I think we could have a label that automatically is put on product that is produced with a Macro so we know that it came "From a factory with Digital children in a third world computer". Any product produced without a macro would display "Handmade with loving clicks" This way we can decide how much to value the product. Handmade should be worth more than pumped out in a factory, right?'

    By the way, check out how speed limits came about. It all started with slowing down the horses, buggies, sleds and what not in town. They used to go fast as they liked to but that was decided to be not such a good idea. Then cars were going as fast as they liked until it was decided they had to abide by speed limits as well. I am sure people were upset about speed limits then as they are now. But back then they had never had a speed limit.

    Anyway, I know I will never have a store because I cant compete being that I don't Mod. But thats ok, maybe I could put up a vending machine lol. We have a lot of brain power on this site, lets think this out and come to a realistic solution that allows some Macros for thoes who want them. I am fine knowing that others use them and I dont.

    ShelLuser and BenMA like this.
  14. I don't know if the community noticed how much of an advantage the macro mod was before the new regulations were "enforced." It was up to the staff members to find people who were abusing the use of macros by AFK farming, and that was likely a very small number of people (a few people ruined it for everybody).

    From December to May, I have been manually trading with villagers and I still have the same output rate because my macro is delayed. I have not done much trading ever since the "changes." The more I trade, the more inaccurate I become with controlling my mouse because of the strain it is causing on my hand. With a lack of script-creating knowledge, I have to play without the macro mod.

    I support all of the suggestions, and I'd like to see where this goes. :)
    tuqueque and ShelLuser like this.
  15. Krysyy's word is law to me. Sorry. ;)
    ShelLuser and Acemox2k like this.
  16. So if Krysyy says that your sole purpose is to jump off a cliff, would that be 'law' to you?
  17. Why, of course! I'd run right off that cliff at top sprinting speed! :p
  18. This was an idea of a way to automate the enforcement, which would be engaged based on a study of spread of crafting/trading times. It was a later-stage idea, once staff have a lot of data. The kick would be invoked when the limits are severely violated, for example you were crafting/trading twice as fast as expected over 10 or more trades in a row, something no vanilla user should ever do, but something super easy for a macro user to do. Limits could be slowly inched in from there, and should be backed off when any false kicks occur.

    Crafting dozens of the same item in one go is one crafting action. If you are talking about crafting dozens of different items, you're fine as long as the speed doesn't seriously exceed the reasonable limit. If you exceed slightly on occasion, staff probably wouldn't care much, but if you're regularly exceeding the speed for hours on end, then you'll get a warning reminder from staff to slow down your macro. It shouldn't be possible from vanilla. If it is then the limit needs to be moved.

    I think that in some cases, it may take longer to complete the trade. The trading speed would be set based on the faster trades, assuming you already had the item you were intending to trade.

    I appreciate your concern and I've had a lot of thoughts about this when designing my idea. There shouldn't be any issue as long as:
    • The limit is set such that a vanilla user wont reasonably exceed it. It has to account for fast vanilla users.
    • Violations are only logged, and taken in context. Staff don't get upset for a slight temporary violation, which may also be due to lag, etc...
    • Any automated kicking software is even more generous. I gave the example of kicking at twice the speed for 10+ crafting/trading actions.
    The purpose of this rule is to establish a reasonable speed that macro users can supply to their scripts, not to affect vanilla users. It shouldn't have any effect on them, other than making a more reasonable playing field versus macro users. If it does, then something is wrong in the implementation.
    willies952002 likes this.
  19. We used to play out side on bikes, skate boards and build things in the yard with whatever we could find. We would run outside in the morning and play hard all day and not come home till the street lights came on. Then we got computerized entertainment. We sat inside and watched the screen as we made digital images of bikes and skate boards do as we wished and built things in a digital environment. We Found a land called Minecraft and built wonderful creations and gathered tons of product that we sat and made into better things. This sitting and clicking was wearing us out. We still wanted to complete the task, but did not want to put in the time and effort of pushing a button that many times. Inspiration struck, if I write some code, I can push the button once and do all of my crafting. Then I can get back to my gaming. Soon even the time it took to set up the one click crafting was annoying because it was discovered a code that by just putting all the ingredients in the chest a finished product fell out the hopper at the bottom. Now I can work on my AI that automatically moves my guy to where I want him so I dont have to spend that time moving him around from place to place and concentrate on building or mining.

    Soon we wont have to play at all. We will just watch our screen because it takes to much effort to push a button. We will go on line and pick a play style and sit back and watch with control interaction being done by voice, but then that might get hard as well.

    Whats wrong with the current modification allowance? It already allows a short cut. If you want to learn coding, I think Aikar has a streaming thing going on and you can apply to join the staff team as well to get more experience.

    I did not write this to offend anyone, I just wonder why we are pushing in the direction of making things or keeping things easy. People say "my hand hurts from crafting so much" or "its wearing out my equipment". So pay someone to craft for you. Just because it is hard does not mean it is a barrier that should be removed. "It will cut into my profits." is not a valid argument. If you have a thousand trades with a villager and you can do it in a couple clicks and its all profit then what does that do to the economy? You invested set up time for the product to trade with and a storage facility, also a store front. Now its all profit baby! Its almost like getting a free product to sell. What does that do to the economy?
  20. This guy actually isn't doing anything anti-status quo... You guys all need to re-read the OP.

    He's just suggesting the rules are better, in which he suggests through the use of a 'crafts/minute or trades/minute' policy.
    Bettering a current policy isn't exactly opposing it xD
    Anyways I like the idea, and I like the current macro limits, and I do plan on using macros in the future.

    EDIT: By the way, it's their server. I don't care if they took it down overnight, I mean no fun there, but it is THEIR legal property to do whatever on it.
    JDHallows likes this.