A Note on #Brexit

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by synth_apparition, Jun 4, 2016.

  1. I'm on mobile so this is hard, but I'm replying to shel's first post.

    Why was Holland the only place allowed to vote? What happened to the rest of the Netherlands? :p
  2. I came back here and wondered why I hadn't gotten alerts for the new posts I just saw lol

    I think Shel just rolls with what most people know the country as to avoid confusion.

    Aaanyway, remain has regained traction over the weekend. Leave is back on the defensive. Farage's bigoted comments, his racist posters, the murder of Jo Cox, remain getting more big name support, the realisation the whole campaign is just being used to give UKIP and Boris Johnson political integrity, leave turning on itself, the economic harm already beginning to show due to uneasy confidence in which way we're going to swing, etc., appears to have swung us back to remain. From a near 50% chance of leaving to a 37% chance in 2-3 days.

    I'm hoping David Cameron, Labour, the Scottish Nationalist Party and all the other people outpouring support for remain keep barreling towards victory over the next day or two. I can't believe I'm saying this, but we need David Cameron to keep his Prime Ministership (?) to protect us from the right wing and near-insane conservatives using this campaign as a pawn to take their place on his seat. It'll also bolster confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, which we need if we want him to win the 2020 general election, who has been previously called unable to win an election (but ended up winning Labour leadership by a record-setting landslide anyway lol). On top of that, it'll delay the UK from breaking apart and give us the obvious benefits of the EU.

    Remain just needs an extra push. They need to point out how the UK was the one who lead the charge to make the EU be based off proportional representation, not first past the post so they do listen to us, we just don't speak up enough and put anti-EU politicians into their parliament. They just won't do it because then that raises the question of "if we do that for the EU, why don't we do it for ourselves?" against our government.

    I'm kind of excited. Staying keeps my life easy, leaving makes it 10x harder.
    Equinox_Boss and ShelLuser like this.
  3. WARNING: Video in spoiler contains harsh language as it is John Oliver, I just rewatched and it seems the Youtube version has any major language bleeped out. If anything, check out the catchy tune towards the end that happens to have very many bleeps in it lol, but its funny. I have seen John Oliver posted on the forums before and considering that this thread is relevant to what he is saying, I figured I would share. Shoutout to Dwight (aka The_Boulder) for showing me John Oliver last year IIRC (may have been 2 years ago). If this should not be on here for harsh language- staff may delete without warning. Thanks!

    Now, this whole Brexit thing wasnt something I was paying attention to- being a common American and all... However, John Oliver does have some interesting things to say about this issue. When this video was aired/posted, there was a 50/50 vote on this issue and as I said I am very unaware to issues in Britain but I do feel you all should stay. Anyywayys, Stew out.
  4. Since the remain campaign won't do it, I'll spread the word of Jeremy Clarkson and James May. Love them or hate them they have some pretty good political views (I don't agree with everything either of them say, just throwing it out there).
    Equinox_Boss and ShelLuser like this.
  5. If we leave the EU we're staying in the free market, which costs more than our membership fee to the EU and will still keep freedom of movement - so no, we don't get to allow or disallow immigration from within the EU, we keep the same amount of control, we just lose our ability to protest it.

    It appears both sides are losing traction, but remain has a slight one point lead. Chance of a Brexit is down to 30%.
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  6. Equinox_Boss and ShelLuser like this.
  7. You're now assuming you know all the costs attached to the EU (no offense intended).

    But seriously: don't you think it's odd how Greece hasn't hit the news media as of late? Not here in Holland, not in Germany (source: a dear friend of mine in Berlin) and not even in the UK (speculation).

    Even though... When Greece needed a financial injection for the first time it was all over the news. The last time it happened (few months ago) you read nothing about it. Look it up yourself if you don't believe me: Greece DID get another financial stimulant.

    Now.... That money has to come from somewhere and you know just as well as me where it's coming from. All the other members.

    I sincerely believe that you nor me have any clue what so ever what the real costs of the EU membership actually are. Especially because a lot of "financial stimuli" are cleverly kept out of global media. As said: look up some of the details yourself.

    PS: now you made me want to see more "real" (old school) Top Gear again :) Man, they should never have kicked Clarckson out! (sorry for offtopic comment)
  8. As a voter I am still, even with two days to go, so so torn with this decision. I count myself as firmly on the left, albeit with some libertarian/anarcho-syndicalist tendencies. I despise the way the debate has been made a proxy by the Leave campaign for public attitudes to all immigration in our society but also the Remain campaign, who have unashamedly used the full force of government to pressurize voters into their side of the campaign .

    For me personally (and why I am so torn in this decision, the pros and cons are):

    + Solidarity with workers across a common trade area where workers wights can affect 100s of millions
    + Tariff-free trade between member states which crucially includes scientific and academic research
    + Wales is a net beneficiary of the EU and if we left the UK is unlikely to make up the shortfall
    + Unsavoury lobbyists are usually more unsuccessful when trying to lobby for their big-business and corporate interests in Brussels than in Westminster
    + Policy on climate change, water quality, air pollution etc. are much better discussed and legislated upon on a larger scale which crosses national borders

    - Commissioners are appointed not elected and the vast majority of directives and law is initiated by the Commission not the European Parliament
    - Suppression of wages in certain areas of the country where EU immigration is highly concentrated
    - Lack of need of the UK government to train domicile UK citizens with certain skills because they are jobs filled by EU migrants (the countries which these people left are also struggling with resultant brain-drain)
    - Some businesses are advertising jobs exclusively in other EU countries because they know they can get away with not paying them a living wage
    - The EU has helped to oust an elected Ukrainian government and installed a pro-EU regime which has antagonised Russia and led to it annexing the Crimea
    - The EU also aided the demise of Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland and Portugal by burdening them with an unsustainable neo-liberal monetary policy which resulted in substantial bail-outs

    So yeah, I do not know what to do when I vote on Thursday. I will probably abstain by spoiling my ballot which is unfortunate in such a decisive decision but I am just to torn to vote either way.
  9. I have been wondering about Greece as well. It seems like there can only be 2 or 3 news stories reported at a time.
    Equinox_Boss likes this.
  10. Your right, I kind of was. It just seems like the EU membership fees are done in relative to a nation's GDP, but the free market thing is a set cost? I dunno. Europe is a complex and messy pot of bureaucracy, numbers, and stuff gets clouted with other stuff often.

    As for the Greece note, I have seen them in the news over the last few weeks - other stories just get the limelight and people care about those ones more. That's how it is here anyway.

    As for Top Gear: Clarkson needed to leave, nobody else would get away with assaulting a coworker :p
    Usually I'd just tell someone unable to vote to go with what their brain tells them to do. With this vote I've been saying stay because there are many economic benefits, it'll keep the country together (no London and Scotland breaking away lol), and other stuff, and nobody knows how we'll be out of the union.

    For you, all's I'm going to stay is how are we able to right those cons if we leave (besides the whole Russia thing, but we helped exacerbate that by fighting for sanctions and whatnot). The EU have listened to us in the past when we've utilised our voice, but nowadays we just elect UKIP MPs into the European parliament who do nothing but insult European politicians and then complain that stuff doesn't get done.

    I'm hoping you vote stay if you decide to vote :p
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  11. This is true. But, given that the UK is an economic powerhouse, if they decide that they should be in the EU again, I find it highly unlikely that they would be denied. Leaving has a chance at making things better and also allows you to turn around and go back to normal. Staying keeps things the same, a same that could be worse.
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  12. We're only an economic powerhouse because of London. A majority of the population don't want London to be part of the UK because the UK is built on bettering that one city, and as a result the rest of the country suffers with climbing poverty rates, a lack of jobs, high unemployment, and some of the cities here are still suffering from the after-effects of the Blitz - which ended 75 years ago. It was one of the big points on why Scotland should have left in their independence referendum in 2014, and it's even caused some people in the North to fight for another Scottish referendum with the North leaving with them as new territory for the country - it'll never happen, because England and Scotland have fought and killed hundreds of eachother for that land, but y'know.
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  13. It would appear #CatsAgainstBrexit is genuinely persuading people to vote in. Well then...

    I'll take whatever remain can muster up at this point lol.
    Equinox_Boss likes this.
  14. First, disagreement or not, I do want to thank you for sharing your vision of the whole thing. I really mean that: I appreciate it. Because if there's one thing very important in discussing or forming your mind about specific things then it is to start listening to people who disagree with your vision.

    A very quick & small sidestep: when I want to buy new gear (hardware, electronics, etc.) I start looking up the complaints people have about the product. That can help you make up your own mind much better. </offtopic comment>

    I find this quote extremely interesting. Now, so close before the whole thing I don't think it's fair to continue discussing but I do want to say that the reason I find this intriguing is because I feel the exact same way. But instead of London I'm having Brussels in mind of course.

    And yeah: good argument with Scotland. That's also an interesting point.
  15. There are strong points for both remain and leave, but I think that there are more benefits in remain. Travel will be cheaper in the EU, funded courses and funded scientists etc, free healthcare in the EU, are all quite appealing reasons to me. There's many, many more... I know I'm only picking on a handful of hundreds of reasons that could go for both sides, but I think that the membership is worth it, we should work together. I can't vote until next year which is a shame, but I thought I'd give my overview thoughts :) I'm only saying I think, I'm not 100% sure. But really, even if I make a decision, I cannot vote or do anything with it anyway :mad:
  16. What do you think how many percent are going to protest-vote exit, just to scare the beep out of the politicians and corporations?
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  17. TIL that Welsh secession could actually be pretty possible in the event of a 'British' exit. They'd leave with Scotland to form the 'Celtic Union', which is pretty ridiculous because the Celts have historically never got along with eachother at all... and I'm saying this as a Celt :p

    I doubt the Welsh would say yes, though.

    Scotland is pretty much confirmed at this point to be getting a second referendum if we leave, since they appear to have their feet firmly planted in the remain camp. England appears to mostly be in the leave camp, but besides a few south Welsh counties, they're the only part of the UK for it. I can't find anything on Northern Ireland, polls only seem to be done on Great Britain and not Ireland.
    Probably not many. I think half the people who rant on Facebook about how good it would be if we leave are going to vote remain when they actually stand in front of the ballot, due to a realisation of "I dunno what would be different if we left, better play it safe."

    Most people I know in favour of leaving have swung backwards and forwards over the past few days and have just decided they're probably not going to vote tomorrow.

    I disagree with our PM's choice of campaigning, like warning of a World War III and genocide campaigns to resume if we leave the EU (this wouldn't happen, Mother Americana and the EU keeps us in check from ripping eachother apart nowadays), and everything he does besides backing remain, but this speech was a good 'un:
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  18. I guess this will be my last post until the actual results start pouring in.

    Chance of leaving is currently at 34%, continuing the trend of leave's traction loss. This is the lowest the chance of leaving has been in months I think. Both sides currently sit at 45%, according to polls. Tomorrow will be a 50/50 split, it seems, if enough people turn out to vote - the amount of non-voters is now the highest its been since April.

    I think we'll end up with something like the Scottish referendum: 51% of voters for staying in, the other 49% for leaving, or something along those lines. I just... can't see leave winning. Maybe I'm just in denial, or being optimistic for my side - but leave doesn't have the right people behind it and has almost no experts backing it, whereas remain does. I'm hoping the public stop taking the advice of Michael Gove to 'ignore the experts' and realise they're experts for a reason.

    The majority of bets are on remain winning, for the first time since February. I'm hoping this all counts for something.

    Good luck to everyone voting tomorrow, no matter which side of the debate you fall on <3

    Also: People have flown planes that display 'Vote Leave' over the service dedicated to Jo Cox, who died for her pro-European beliefs last week. That makes me feel sick.

    Honestly, the best thing that comes out of tomorrow is an end to this. The country gets off the edge of its seat, I can stop stressing about what I'm going to have to base the next 10-15 years of my life off and make a decision, and the toxic nationalism dies down on the English side of things. Scottish nationalism may spike, but we've been dealing with that for a long time now, and it's not toxic since they've never been the hegemon on the British Isles.

    This guy also made a poster, and it puts both sides to shame lol
  19. Okay, I was wrong - not my last post until the results pour in.

    The day is upon us. It begins. To those on both sides...