Since the change to auctions, which I felt would be a detriment to the type of auctions I hold, I feel the appearance of the auction page has improved. Where before my auctions would get pushed down the page, even onto page 2, within a few hours, I've seen maybe half a page of new auction posts between my auction forum views. I think the mods being much more on top of auction forum clean-up had a large effect as well, taking out completed auctions so the list of already viewed auctions with no new posts were pretty much just active auctions contributed greatly to the ease of auction forum use. After seeing the effect of the auction changes, I was prepared to re-think my opinion that not being allowed to bump would hurt my auctions. Except. For one little thing... Auction Spam. After reading Krysyy's first post, I was prepared to dig into the data and compile a list to see how many total auction spams were being posted, and not just the newest bucket craze alone, but Rhy saved me from having to put in that effort. I cut the spoiler list from my quote, but I did read it carefully and didn't see anything I disagreed with as being spam except for (possibly) the 16 Bucket auctions. I'm on the fence about those; only because 16 is a full stack of Buckets. To be honest, auction spam angers me. I know people will get tired of the new shiny-pretty, and abusing the new rules to snub their noses at the staff, I just wish they'd get tired of it already. I would like to bump auctions again, but at a much increased lapse of time. I voted for 12 hours in the survey, which is about what I think I usually had between bumps in my previous auctions. I really don't care about the Recently Active Threads list on the home page, I don't really use it. I hope SOMETHING is done about auction spam, but I kind of like having the ability to auction off a single item. I guess it just depends on the item.
if you don't feel like reading, just skip to all that bold at the bottom, but you might want some context. if you didn't read my other essay (whoa ark's schoolwork is interfering with his social life ACK), remember i'm neutral in all this. i'm not gonna spoiler this so chickeneer doesn't have to fix the mess of spoilers (thanks btw). i can't really make this a single paragraph without it being super messy and not great to read, so just scroll past if you don't care. that's what i do, at least one more note: i probably made this way more generalized than it actually is, but i think i did a good job at addressing the conflict here. everyone has their own opinion and here is mine: To be honest, over the argument that the community should have more say in this, there are a lot of things to keep in mind. I feel like some people are missing the point on this before they give their opinion. Here's two points from either side of the argument that i have seen or thought of: FOR THE SUDDEN CHANGES -people can actually test out the rules before giving an answer, much better than just saying yes or no. sort of like a beta test. - data on the before and after changes of the auction economy can be acquired quicker, and the information is somewhat more reliable than just predictions. AGAINST THE SUDDEN CHANGES -community is less involved in the formulation and implementing of these rules. -information on update isn't sent out as well (for example, people like me who don't use auctions that much have little or no idea there were changes at all unless that was just me living under a rock, which it probably was LOL). In the end, there isn't really a solid yes or no to what the staff should have done. Sure, this isn't the best solution for changes, but treat it like a beta test of a game. it isn't always the best it can be at first. there was a good chance that the rules wouldn't have even made it to the forums anyway, considering a sizable chunk of the community didn't like these rules whether or not they wanted to change them to better fit the auction economy. Yes, i'm not afraid to admit that the staff did leave the community out on this one, and that is food for thought. We as a community (staff included) work at our best when we work together. There's no arguing about that. I can't and won't take a specific side in this, in fact i do believe both sides have certain points that are very strong. But, people have to understand you can't just simply decide whether or not something happens. rules like these have massive effects on the entire economy of emc, even if it isn't apparent at first (all of the new auctions that came about because of this, for example). you can't just say "oh, we should totally have had a say in this!" when, as you've seen, there was a good chance the rules wouldn't have happened at all. but at the same time, you can't just say "oh, at least we can test these rules and then decide!" because that's leaving out the community in certain parts, when emc's entire focus is on its community. i'm not saying anyone here is wrong, or that there was an easier way to handle this, because there wasn't. The community gets larger every day, and as we get bigger, more groups with different ideas surface, which only leads to arguments (example: this conflict). TL;DR The big lesson here, is that the staff couldn't have made a decision without hurting a group of the community. it's not like this decision was easy! Keep in mind, we can always change these rules if they don't work out as good as they can be if we give it more time! please don't hate anyone we're all still friends alright :3
my opinion is that as much as people love to bump auctions and stuff it really becomes annoying like the auction i just bidded on got up insanely high with no bumps and stuff that i bid on is usually pretty cheap but i digress the auction spam angers me as what happens if you can't get on for a day and 5o or 60 people have bumped their auctions it pushes your auction way down the page so it's harder to get bids on the flip side of that coin is bumping auctions was kinda helpful but i never did it more than once in 6 hours cause i just couldn't get on that much back then my auctions never really got very high even with bumps but i really do love the job staff has been doing keeping the forum page clear from closed auctions keep up the good work guys thanks
An observation from a community member that is not meant to upset the apple cart, but draw attention to a detail I have yet to see anyone address. While the basis for the current discussion is founded on data, I question the actual integrity of that data set. Yes, I know all the auction data are publicly view-able, but what I also know, which is not so easily discernible, are the times I have intentionally bid on an auction with no intention of winning, but essentially to bump the thread so others would see it and bid on it. I have done this on several occasions since the new rules went into place and when I saw that the items for sale were going way below what they should be going for. I do apologize for unknowingly tainting the data as this was not the goal. What I do question now though is : Was I the only one who did this? I have a feeling I was not the only one who wanted to help out a friend or fellow community member by nudging their thread. While not specifically spelling out the word bump when doing so, it still had the same effect. So, with this in mind, and knowing I was not so predisposed to do so prior to the rule changes, I feel this is a variable that has not been considered in this discussion. Where it seems the auctions are actually going for similar or maybe even more value post change, is this really the case? or simply the by-product of an agitated community going above and beyond the normal protocol to inadvertently misconstrue a data set. I have read over the entirety of this thread and taken the survey to which I originally wrote this as a suggestion: Just a thought, and maybe not a good one, but if the actual auction forum section were segmented into different categories such as one would find when visiting a shop, this could prove to be handy when looking for auctions pertaining to the type of item you may be looking for. Also, if this segmentation were in place, then the above notion of a bump every 12hrs, loses it's value in my mind somewhat, as those auctions would not truly be buried over time as much. Categories such as Wood, Gems, Nether, End, Colors, I don't really know the best segmentation of areas as I don't own a shop myself, but do find this helpful when visiting a shop, and feel it could also be helpful in not only finding the type of materials you are searching for, but would also essentially nullify the need for bumps at all in my opinion. Okay, so after taking a quick look at the actual auction page, this suggestion may not be needed at all either as there are only 12 auctions in there to browse through. It would seem the total number of auctions have fallen significantly. To which, I changed my comment to simply state : The current classifications seem fine. I left my selection of a 12hr bump as I feel this is a good span "if" bumps are re-instated. While on this topic though I would like to take a moment to convey a few other comments that seem related. I don't see why another recently active thread sidebar could not have been implemented on the actual auction page, which would only be updated based on the threads within the auction house section. If there were a recent activity sidebar, then all the auctions being view-able as before would not have been so bad. I do, however, like the cleaner look, but feel the small amount of auctions are truly on display like this. Also, it seems to me that the 2 stickied posts by Kryssy would be more fitting situated up top with the archived auctions. This brings me to yet another inquiry, which I know may fall under the categorization of a suggestion, which most likely has already been suggested, but I will toss it out there anyways since it is relevant to this topic. I believe I have admitted to being bad once before and exploring other possible servers , but it was truly just to get ideas to bring back to the Empire in all honesty. I know it is not cool to speak of other servers, but as a reference point, it is the basis for my knowledge of this inquiry. It would seem that it is possible for a server to actually host an in-game "Auction-House" via a plugin type system, which would allow anyone to simply host their auctions through an in game GUI similar to the vault page. After a little research it appears most of those plugins are dated to prior versions of minecraft. I also know the Empire would not just simply add a plugin without customizing it first, but feel even these old versions could provide some fundamental elements to be considered by the developers if such an endeavor were pursued. The simple fact that this could be done though is worth considering, and could truly simplify this entire matter. If we had an in-game auction house, I don't see the need at all for the forum pages, except to maybe look back on history. I suppose it could be done in conjunction somehow as a form of advertisement to look for an item in the auction house, but this again seems like an unnecessary mechanic in such an environment to me. With the upcoming "Empire Update" changes, and the Empire Currency / Bank system they seem to be working on, why not also add an actual Auction House that could resolve a lot of this forum side debate for a transaction that must take place in-game in the first place. I would also wager there are many new members that have no clue that auctions are even a thing, as it is disconnected, but associated only via the forum. This has even been diminished further with the reduction in advertisements. Yes, it is nice to see the possibility of a new advertisement system, which I also feel could be utilized with an in-game auction house. I also believe that if we had an in-game auction house, there would be many more auctions. This type of a setup also makes the overall transaction seamless and cuts out the hassle of pick-up locations, times, verification of payment, and actual viewing of the item for auction. The auction house system I have seen had the option to Buy, Sell, and Auction. So one could simply list an item they want to sell at a set price if they so desire, but the option to also do an Or Best Offer was available too. While this was not part of the system I saw, I think it could prove interesting if the Empire Devs could find a way to link an in-game Auction House to also support shops and malls with their own dedicated outlets similar to a internet web presence where items could be bought via the online version of their shop and the items would be simply subtracted from the shop as if someone were on-site buying from a chest. Yea, that may be too technical and sophisticated for what we are striving to achieve from a community aspect, so I totally understand if that is too much, but was another thought worth mentioning. I also hope it echoes my sincere confidence in our great developer team and their abilities. I have also taken note of many that have grumbled about the way this was initially rolled out, and while I too think it is good to get feedback about changes ahead of time, I can also see the perspective the staff were coming from, and applaud them for taking the step to initiate change where it is needed. I cannot tell you how many times I build something only to come back later and think...gee, why did I do that like that, this would have been much better. As they say, Hindsight is 20/20. Regardless, I still enjoy the fact that this server actually cares what we think at all. Many servers live by the creed : Their way or the the highway / Like it or Lump it. So once again, I will express my gratitude for the opportunity to be a part of such an amazing community with a staff that truly is by the people and for the people. Thank-You Staff for All your Efforts and Hard Work. It would seem I have run the gambit and explored all the thoughts I have on this topic. I would like to conclude in saying that I have great confidence in the community, the developers, the staff, and Kryssy & Aikar when it comes to change. The Empire never ceases to amaze me at how it continues to adapt to updated content, and differing perspectives from an ever growing robust community. I look forward to what others think about these thoughts, and the results of the survey. That's my 2 Rupees...(For now) KnightZer0ne Tempered Outpost Founder
Well-written my friend! It's always nice to see someone who can put strings of words together and make them flow!
i like a lot of the ideas you had! i like the idea of an auction house in-game, as i too have seen these systems before. expanding on this, i think that if the devs either edited market chat to be split into an advertisement chat and an auction/market chat, we could still have bidding and chatting about related articles without cluttering the main channels we have now (/cc,/cr,/cl). I also agree it could be an improvement to the auction forum thread we have now, the only catch being how we'd make the transition as smooth as possible. note this is just me visualizing what the ah would look like
hmm some shady data. I will say, if it is true and not cherrypicked, it definitely had the opposite effect of what I thought.
I get that you are still upset, but you have to be at least willing to consider this issue from staff's perspective instead of just repeating yourself in each post. Prime example in the quote below where a player thought one thing and the results weren't the same. Not cherry-picked, though I DO wish there were more instances of items before and after the change that we could use for comparison. I went through the pre-change auctions and simply wrote them in my spreadsheet as I went down. Then looked at the new auctions one at a time until I found auctions with same items as pre-change. As a whole, I think the more valid analysis of the data is that the auctions are the same as with bumping, not necessarily better. This addresses throwing out spam auctions from the data, as well as any player bids which were created intentionally to protest the change. I'd have let the changes run a bit longer if it were completely up to me, but we also wanted the community to see that we weren't forgetting about making this survey for input. All we know is that the changes did not tank the auctions like some community members thought would happen, and that's a good thing for auctions as a whole. Now we're going to see what the community thinks and go from there to finalize bump rulings and other changes surveyed for.
memes r great 'nd all, but to be a meme it needs words If people are still having issues with what krysyy said above, you can PM me and I can easily explain what she is saying in a more (if possible) blunt manner
To see the will and the work to improve and adjust auction rules so they serve the community as good as possible is for me like a years long dream come true. Thank you! I find this three perspectives to have highest priority: - usefulness to people who participate in auctions, when they participate - impression that new members will get - free market (free from interventions by EMC owners / staff) The original intent for the restrictive parts of the auction rules (allowed items, amounts, number of auctions) was to reduce the number of auctions in order to reduce the needed moderation effort. They were specifically made to disallow joke ("spam") auctions like one renamed piece of dirt, one bucket, ... That part of the rules were a mishap, so it's good to get rid of them. Suggestions: - If there is a significant part of the community who like to participate in joke auctions, make a forum section for them to have fun without disturbing anyone. This section would be excluded from the "recently active threads". New members could also use this section while learning how the system works. - Rule of thumb for joke auctions: market value of less than X rupees, currently 5,000 r. "If you can go to shop and buy it (or make it) for 5k or less, then don't bother auctioning it." - Discourage joke / mock auctions in the main "Auctions" section by making clear that there is a separate section for them. Move misplaced auction threads, warn members, exclude repeating offenders from the main "Auctions" section. - Make a separate web interface for auctions which serves the purpose. The forum page would only have a list with current auctions: date, topic, items and amounts (or "several"), current price, closing time - which would link to the auctions interface. Bottom line: EMC needs more friends to play with. Make it the best playground possible. Adjust the rules so they serve the community, and make them match the intention as good as possible. Explain the sincere intention behind each rule wherever it is potentially not obvious. Put it into the wiki.
Couldn't have said it better myself! While I agree with this, I must say, I have felt a lot of hostility to my bucket auctions. So, yes, I agree with what you said here, but multiple people have misinterpreted my auctions, so what's not to say that other people's have been misunderstood and labeled "spam"?
Your bucket auctions are a welcome example of what not to do. They serve an important role in giving us the real experience and insight of how ........ it can easily get. Otherwise, they are just waste of time. Rule for all auctions and everything: don't waste other peoples time.
Well, my friend, I'm sorry you seem not to like my bucket auctions, I still welcome you to them (of course). I do see where you're coming from. They've been successful (not one has gone unsold), so I do appreciate your opinion of course, as I value other people's opinions, and of course not mentioning other people's names here, but there unfortunately is quite a few people (here on EMC) that are intolerant of other's differentiating opinions, just like in today's society.
i'm done auctioning after this auction lol https://empireminecraft.com/threads/auction-dc-of-feather-falling-iv-books.78286/ i lost sooo much
