The town is growing!

Keph, that ain't asking too much at all. So a big THANK YOU to all the staff

Also, I'm on a victory dance. Killed Momentus. WOOT!

Okay, okay, last post, then I'll leave you all alone.

I think that this "we can't make everyone happy" line I keep hearing is a bit misleading, because, to me, it holds within itself this implication that "we'll try to make as many people happy as possible though", which isn't the case. What you are saying now is that it's not about trying to minimize negatively affected parties; you are trying to make all potentially negatively affected parties equally (un)happy, in order to be fair. That's an interesting philosophy, and I guess I didn't realize it was the one being used here.

If "we'll try to make as many people happy as possible" was part of the philosophy, there would be no question about doing what I requested, as it would help every corner residence owner, and 32+ edge residence owners per server (so 288 of them at least, because, for the + shape, the "branches" would be 29-wide, or even less, but not 37), and wouldn't make it any worse for anyone else. Plus, I don't think people would object to a cooler shape than a square, so it could even make unaffected people happier. And okay, perhaps I am too biased because I'm a corner residence owner, but let's keep in mind all the other corner residence owners, and over a 5th of all the edge residence owners, for whom I am also advocating. Not just the few who have also spoken up, but the potential many who will log in one day soon and do a double-take upon seeing their sudden, unexpected new neighbouring residences.

So I think that, because corner residences are clearly much more rare (equally rare as spawn residences), that if anyone losing their unique location from this should be saved from that fate, I think that corner residence owners (and over 5th of edge residence owners, let's not forget) would be a better option than your choice of... no one.

And no, I'm not offended, by the way; I simply disagree with the philosophy.

I think that favouritism would mean that preferential treatment is being given to one at the expense of the other, but if the two are already "at expense", if you will, and all you are doing is saving one but not the other, I don't think that's favouritism; I think that's maximizing happiness, in a situation where not all, but more, can be made happy.

And the other thing is that yes, I do think that complaining, or fighting for what you want/believe in, is a very important thing to do. If no one ever complained, or spoke up, or objected to things they thought were wrong, I can't imagine what kind of world I'd have to be living in right now.

Anyway, you obviously won't budge, so I'll stop bothering you about this. Thank you for all the good parts of this update (which is most of it); I just wish we were on the same page about this one aspect that is so near and dear to me. Well, I'm gonna go eat some crumpets now.

I and I am sure many others would agree with this point, in this case it relates to town expansion but this same argument could have been and to some extent has been put to many other situations where decisions have been made that some ppl do not like.

This is called change and most ppl don't like change, there are things that are part of EMC now that I do not like but most players do and I accept that and don't participate in them. This particular change will effect only players along the edge of the map and a solution to there problem has been put to them that they if they wish can pay to have there residence moved at a discount.

If I was to suggest anything here for this particular situation it would be this, that all existing edge residence players get a free move to the new edge parallel to their existing res if they wish to move that is. A one time only offer with an understanding that any further changes to or expansion of the map they would have to pay for. I make this suggestion only as this is the first time this has ever been looked at and as such no one who chose an edge res was ever informed that the map could or would change in this regard.

This way all parties get what what they want and no one should feel that they have lost out, EMC town gets expanded and edge res holders keep the edge they like. Any other player wishing to move into the new vacant edge lots would have to pay the discounted move rate as they are not effected as directly as the edge players.

I'll be honest with you guys; I suppose I "sided" with the overall expansion decision opinion wise (I can't help believe (or assume) that there's more brewing in the background than we know off. For example; we already know Aikar doesn't have much spare time to spend on EMC atm. and I cannot help but be convinced that this also influences things).

However, I'll be the first to admit that because this doesn't directly concern me its also very easy for me to form such an opinion. I think that there have been some very good counter arguments as well. One of them being: "What if more expansion is required sooner or later?".

So I was wondering if a second town world could be an option for a future town expansion? (just so we're perfectly clear: I'm not talking about the current expansion).

I can come up with several reasons why a new world might not be a good idea, but I also think that if the staff wants to change some things in the future then such a new world might provide better options for that. For example; maybe it's even possible to experiment or decide on different town patterns (layouts), especially because this wouldn't affect any existing players.

Now, I can also see a lot of problems with such a plan. One of them being the risk of overcomplicating things for the players and I assume it adds more tax on the server. Still... maybe food for thought?

Even a flat repetitive landscape is a landscape. I never said it was visually appealing. This is one of the areas of control that people relinquish for a safe res. (no matter the role of it in promoting or undermining community...) EMC has a very small staff and a lot of players. And, some people, myself included, like grid-layouts from time to time. Heck, just look at real cities and towns. Most of the roads are done in grids.

Food for thought is always a good thing. I imagine with the current player load that the staff are quite busy. Perhaps if you and others from the contrib team can put your heads together to pitch some concrete ideas/alternate layouts that might help get that ball rolling sooner rather than later? The thought being more awareness and time for comment from players before an expansion (be it a new town server...etc.) occurs.

While I suspected there would be an expansion in the not too distant future I was, honestly, surprised by how soon it happened vs removal of derelict properties... It all made sense once this thread was updated by Krysyy and Aikar. I was just operating on assumptions based on too little information. Well, I hope folks manage to come to terms with the reality of this change. And I hope the next expansion sees fewer hurt feelings.

Despite the very passionate disagreement I still view the lot of you as community members.
Let's all have a big group cyber hug now? shall we?

***HUG***

The picture is broken now

True, we can not change the past. But there is this other thing we can change.

That decision, that the towns will be expanded with more residences in order to support the derelict policy, is one thing.
The decision of how to do this is another. Etc. There are many aspects, questions and answers.

This thread is an excellent example showing how the community can produce a good productive discussion and quality solutions in quite a short time.

It is a waste not to bring up an issue of this significance in good time and to miss to discuss it with the community and work out the best solutions / the optimal compromise together - including voting if needed.

Staff making concessions ... I know what you mean, but this still does not sound right.
At least because it implies separate (and opposite) interests of the staff and the community.
The staff is Aikar, Maxarias and Krysyyjane ... anyone else?
(Moderators are not decision makers, so not staff in this matter.)
So they would want what ... to invest the least possible effort, while the community wants best effort, wants quality?
Or something else?

However, why on Earth EMC shouldn't people who use the town be informed of needed changes in good time, discuss and work out good solutions and vote to choose one good solution - within the given technical constrains?

Why shouldn't people who use the town decide about how to form it, how to make it better?

I hope this will happen soon with introduction of shops in the Frontier - successful towns in the Frontier, based on community effort, synergy and trust.

The very work that the most members here love to do, the very work that attracts them to EMC.

Are you sure about that? I think we're capable of working that out.
One (simple) idea: a separate virtual server for town(s). Would also greatly reduce the lag problem.

I guess most people here realize that it's everything but easy to be staff and do all of this work and make decisions - and then to be criticized from all sides.
But why not make this much easier and much better by discussing with the community in good time and letting the community vote and decide about aspects like the form of the town?
I don't understand that aversion to what is widely accepted as best practice in like all of the free and civilized world.

/rage start
I think this has became redonkulous. People have became so selfish and the community has became a skelton, meaning it is dead (if you were to compare it to EMC in the old days) and favoritism has became such a large part of EMC that its almost funny.

I also think the admins need to listen to the community more, meaning not making half fast decisions as well as not being so close-minded....

So yeah that's my opinion.... Sorry I'm so late to the party

/rage end

You missed the part where they explained that 95% of the community said no to changing derelict times. Without changing derelict times, the only way to fix the problem is to add more residences, as was explained by them. They then conceded considerably in an equality based way (well, 99%), as was explained by them.

Did you like even read the thread, or did you just wait for an "opportunity" to post this?-_- We have one mod in here politely duking it out with Krysyy, long time/very active members exclaiming support for ideas that are not happening, and the admin team conceding in a way that is based on 99% equality.

I don't see much selfishness in here to be honest. I see people exclaiming their opinions on things that matter to them in search of answers. Is that selfish? If the community were dead, then there would have been little to no response to this issue. The community is very alive, as was shown by the activity in here. A dead community would be a community that is inactive, or hostile. We are neither. Sure things can get heated in our debates, but that is healthy. An expressive community is a healthy community. Players here are also very supportive of each other, even in potentially foreign conditions. Supportive =/= agreeing with everything, all the time.

I think it is unfair of you to judge our community as such, since you left it for reasons pertaining to another community. A community can only be accurately judged by being well immersed within it as well as judging it from the outside, this is the basis of ethnography. This also requires correcting for all biases and preconceived notions. Your reason for leaving this community was because you felt that the good parts of the community had migrated elsewhere. Because of this, you were almost certainly expecting nothing more than a dead EMC, and you prove it with your post:

This guy just trying to egg on a flame war. If he really knew this community then and now he would know nothing has really changed. In fact, Emc forums nowadays reminds me when I first joined lots of player activity good and bad. Players talkin to each other random things, each smp is their own community with larger community. Blah blah blah compared to 8-9 months ago this place is active as ever.

I have been waiting for about 2 months now for a corner residence to go on derelict (everytime I new player came before because it was at midnight for me everytime) so that I have a 2x2 home. Now it is even harder because everyone wants that plot so that they have it reserved :/...

Random post in 3...2...1...
Two fish are in a tank.One turns to the other and says,"how do you drive this thing?"

So Utopia might be done by the end of march begging of April?

How dare you say what I was thinking as I read his post, only sooner, and way better than I would have...
Well done sir!

I like how once I voice my opinion on something, everyone flips balls.... just because I see it one way does not mean y'all have to agree.... so calm yourselves.

Also iI don't think it is fair saying I left for another server... especially considering the fact that it wasn't for another community, and due to the fact of personal reasons....

I present my evidence.

There is no balls flipping being done here unless it is on your end, we are just countering your statement. There are other reasons why your statement was highly likely to be preconceived, but I would rather not bring them up in order to keep this from getting personal.

Wait so I can buy another res without having to pay for it with real money?