[SUGGESTION] Reallow voter's items to be auctioned

Discussion in 'Suggestion Box Archives' started by TomvanWijnen, Aug 23, 2018.

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Should voter's items be allowed to be auctioned?

+1 9 vote(s) 56.3%
0 1 vote(s) 6.3%
-1 6 vote(s) 37.5%
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  1. Recently it has come to my attention that apparently voter's items are not allowed to be auctioned. I personally don't really see why, and think that it makes the rules more complicated again (they were simplified just recently :p), so I suggest that as auctioning voter's items has been allowed in the past, it should be allowed again.

    What do you think?
    TomvanWijnen, Aug 23, 2018
    #1
    NuclearBobomb, ShelLuser and rykly18 like this.
  2. i think your right about the auction rules getting more complicated but i think that voters items shouldn't be allowed in auctions cause a voters item should be earned by a player so if they get a bunch of voters gear is unfair to people who are trying to earn it through voting(like me).but thats just my opinion from me

    -1 from me
    belac555, Aug 23, 2018
    #2
    607 and andra137 like this.
  3. They weren't allowable in the old rules either. Any that were auctioned were not caught properly and that's on us, but they weren't 'allowed'.

    Reasoning:
    A voters item is a personalized reward for your contributions to the Empire. It is not intended to be sold in the first place, and is actually eligible for a one-time replacement if it were ever lost. The allowance of the items in the auctionable items section will directly contradict the intention of the item's existence in the first place.
    Krysyy, Aug 23, 2018
    #3
    PhoenixAffinity, TomvanWijnen, 607 and 2 others like this.
  4. I definitely understand the motivation behind not wanting to have these auctioned off. Heck, even though my alt actually has a full set which only gets sporadically used I'd never auction these off (not even the iron ones) because of what they stand for and what they mean to me.

    However I also think it's fair to mention that this does seem to contradict the "play your way" motivation a bit. I mean: as Krysyy said: some people worked really hard to get these items, so why shouldn't they be allowed to do with them as they please? You're allowed to sell these items (unlike the gift boxes *) so it seems weird that you're not allowed to auction them.

    Another problem is precedence. These items could be auctioned off ever since I started playing, which only makes it more weird to suddenly change all that with the only motivation that you never intended for this to happen in the first place. No offense intended but surely that could have been picked up a bit sooner (trust me: I know it's (too) easy to talk about those things in hindsight).

    Anyway.... I have to go +1 on this, even though it would never directly affect me.

    * Just so we're clear: nothing between the lines here, I just mention them as an example.
    ShelLuser, Aug 23, 2018
    #4
    TomvanWijnen, FadedMartian and belac555 like this.
  5. There is a difference in something being sold and something being encouraged to be sold, like in a 'sell these items' list.

    In addition, as stated before, they were NOT allowed to be auctioned. There is no precedence here because the rule didn't change. The previous rules indicated that the EMC custom items you could auction were:

    Certain EMC Custom Items
    Items listed as being Promotional Items, Special Event Items, Special Mob Drops, or Voucher Items on the Empire Wiki can be auctioned in any quantity unless otherwise specified. You may NOT auction a currently running promo item or a special mob drop from a currently active event.

    This list did not include the Vote Bonus Items and therefore they weren't allowed to be auctioned.

    In reference to your comment about 'play your way', that's not what we mean with our slogan and we've recently seen more and more players think it means we let you do what you want. We've even had someone try to argue (in private) that their 'way' was a faction PvP playstyle and therefore we needed to let them run around killing players. Obviously not what we ever intended with that slogan and it won't be allowed.

    To clarify for everyone reading, Play your Way is not saying that you should be able to do whatever you want. It means that we have given you coded systems to modify your gameplay to match your difficulty and make the game accessible to all areas of focus. If you don't like fighting bosses, then turn them off. If you never want to be in town, then live in the wild all you want. However, using this phrase against Staff to claim we aren't allowing you to 'play your way' when we say something isn't allowed is ludicrous. You have a set number of options to choose from to customize your experience. We have simply removed some of the options we, as a server, do not want to encourage/promote. That's our option as a server and we'll continue to make these sorts of calls as we see fit to shape the future of EMC according to the aforementioned vision outlined in detail by Aikar himself.
    Krysyy, Aug 23, 2018
    #5
    PhoenixAffinity, MoreMoople, Kephras and 4 others like this.
  6. There is precedence:

    https://empireminecraft.com/search/6952510/?q=voter&o=date&c[node]=86

    I'll quote 3 aspects:

    ThaKloned auctioned off a full set of voters gear earlier this year:
    https://empireminecraft.com/threads/auction-iron-voters-tools.75167/

    Theomglover also auctioned off a full set of voters armor last year:
    https://empireminecraft.com/threads/auction-imn666s-voters-armour.74993/

    Zomberina auctioned off a full set right here:
    https://empireminecraft.com/threads...e-and-get-it-allllll-corrected-auction.74807/

    These auctions completed successfully, staff didn't stop them, as such there is precedence.

    Try to picture this from a player perspective. We were allowed to auction this stuff off. You may say the rules didn't allow it, I have my doubts, but the facts show otherwise. I'm convinced that if I really start digging then I can even come up with a staff member auctioning off voters gear. How is this not precedence?

    We were allowed to auction them off, and now we can't. That's really the way it is.

    Like I said; I can definitely understand the motivation. Heck, to an extend I even support it, but in all honesty: for a normal player this looks really simple: we were allowed to auction this stuff, now we're not, "because".

    Yeah, I can definitely see the problem there. That's obviously not what I meant.

    Reminds me of an old saying: A gentlemen's agreement has a major flaw: it requires gentlemen.

    A raising problem in modern times if you ask me: what many people consider obvious (of course you don't cheat on Minecraft, it spoils the fun and is also unfair towards other players) is merely a nuisance towards others.

    But to clarify my use of the phrase here...

    We're on an economy server. For many players economy is what drives their motivation to play. It was an honest eye opener for me when I first experienced this (I believe Tom is also one these kinds of players, I could be wrong) but many players never set foot in the wastelands to gather stuff. Minecraft without mining? What. the. heck?!

    I really cannot see that work out (for me) but many players rely on the market and economy only to get their stuff.

    That is what I had in mind when I referenced 'play your way'. Why not allow players to auction off their hard earned items in an economy way on an economy server? Because honestly: some players only play the economy on the Empire.

    Especially because it already happened so many times before.
    ShelLuser, Aug 23, 2018
    #6
    TomvanWijnen likes this.
  7. No, I don't think Voter's items should be allowed to be auctioned. I was going to have an attempt at explaining why, but that's unnecessary, as Krysyy did it already. ;)
    607, Aug 23, 2018
    #7
  8. We are not an economy server. We are a survival multiplayer server with an economic plugin, as well as many other plugins. It is true that a good portion of players are avid participators in the economy, but it's not everyone and it's not the driving force behind our plans for the future. That being said, there are intended non-obtainable items through economic means. These are items you earn, and a big driving force behind the tokens system, which I admit has not seen much use yet. However, the prospective future of EMC, as outlined by Aikar, will see these items and they won't be 'purchasable' by players that don't earn them. That's the intention and voter items fall into the same category. It's just not something you see too much of right this moment, but it's the future of EMC. There ARE aspects of EMC that can be bought, for a price, but there are also certain achievements that must be earned. Vote bonus items are earned through hard work, which is why we put your name on it. Be proud of what you have accomplished and don't cheapen it by trying to make it another promo.

    New idea inspiration: Cursed Voter Items that can't be lost/given away. Now to get the devs on it =P
    Krysyy, Aug 23, 2018
    #8
    PhoenixAffinity, TomvanWijnen, ShelLuser and 1 other person like this.
  9. That will make people more likely to sell and buy the old Voter's Items, though, as they will be unobtainable otherwise. :p
    607, Aug 23, 2018
    #9
    Gawadrolt and ShelLuser like this.
  10. Strange. When I follow this link I see:

    Now, of course, PMC is at the bottom of the list (literally ;) ) but in most voting site categories EMC is listed as an economy server.

    But still, this is exactly the point I addressed above and which you somewhat ignored: you guys may consider yourself a survival server first and foremost, but what do your players think? Intent and perception is a very strange thing.

    And with all due respect, I also think you're somewhat underdoing (?) the economy aspect here. There are many players who seem to fully depend on the economy. You may not have intended that, but it's still happening.

    I really hope that you're not hinting at more drastic changes like this in the future because I have a very mixed feeling about how that would end.

    Are there? I mean, the economy doesn't stop with the auctions. Nothing is stopping players from just selling their voters items. Last time I checked these items weren't banned from selling. You could have changed the rules in between but then I think you got a lot of "offenders" on your hand.

    Are the rules to protect the players, or to protect your vision of what is "right"?

    I admit: a critical question. But honestly: too many rules and you'll even confuse the most legitimate of players. And warning the wrong player about doing something they thought was right can seriously work against you (just so we're clear: I'm referring to something which happened to me "elsewhere", I kinda made a remark about not being very active on $other_forum, and a few months later the owner PM's me).

    No sarcasm, but I am being critical: good luck trying to stop players from selling their items. Items they earned I might add.

    I'm not going to read on from this point on. No offense intended (yes, it is often used very casually but trust me that whenever I use the phrase I do so because I re-read, re-thought and still used the wording I planned on).

    I foresee a major issue rising here. Somewhat small now, but growing bigger as time passes by. Your story reminds me of several game developers who went before you; they knew exactly what players needed without bothering to check what players actually wanted. The results should be obvious: these developer studios are no longer amongst us.

    I'm not trying to spin a doom story here because, nah, dozens of new players arrive every week and plenty of them enjoy themselves (rightfully so!). And that is also a very important aspect which gets overlooked by critics: we dislike certain aspects because we were used to something else (I am critic too ;)). New players don't know any better and if they like the environment then that's it: they're happy.

    However, my reasons for still sharing concerns are because I still see a decline in these periods as well. And it also seems obvious to me that you guys have a problem with acknowledging what is living amongst the players. Let's just say that I was a little surprised at the feedback I got from that auction house thread. Enough for me to pick up a nice winter sale goodie bag in the summer (I love it, I really enjoyed that!) and my other shell is pretty sure to go diamond really soon.

    You ended with a somewhat controversial comment (I honestly liked it though!) so it's only fair that I do the same:

    Does the staff team agree with you because they really agree, or because they worry of losing their "job" if they disagree?

    Just so we're clear here: no dislike, no hate, no criticism, no nothing of that. Just a critical comment.

    But I do think it's fair to say that the people you surround yourself with and who know you are also more inclined to agree with you. And that's where the phrase "thinking outside the box" comes from.

    However, you can only fight stuff like that for so long.... And that's what I somewhat worry over.
    ShelLuser, Aug 23, 2018
    #10
    607 and TomvanWijnen like this.
  11. Hey, let’s argue pedantic points instead of moving on. Cause I know I sure don’t have anything better to do.
    Prairie_Fire, Aug 23, 2018
    #11
  12. -1

    I agree with prairie: why not try to play the game as EMC intended it and if u dont like it... why not try 2 do something urself?

    some ppl say auctions are doomed but so far they still going ^.^

    I vote: give it a chance!
    AyanamiKun, Aug 23, 2018
    #12
  13. So that took a turn into left field, then back around to a whole different ball game...

    First off, it's not my vision that we are explaining here. The 'Play Your Way' design and the roadmap are all designed by Aikar, and as owner of a private server, he has every right to say what he wants to happen on the server. We discuss ideas and we confer with a team of staff members about said ideas. If all of those staff members agreed with us, we'd have a very different EMC than what we have currently. We'd also never make a single decision if we ever expected them to agree on a subject unanimously.

    I don't know if you think we run some sort of dictatorship with staff, but we don't. We run a TEAM of highly trained and intelligent staff members who play/have played EMC for long periods of time. They don't just agree with us because they have to or they'll lose their position. In fact, the majority of our best staff are the best because they are willing to help us think outside our original frames of mind. Sure, these staff members sometimes agree completely, but it's not because they are afraid of upper management. They see the staff side of things and their focus is on benefiting the community as a whole, so their opinions sometimes align with ours because of this fact.

    I agree that discussing this at some point has become repetitive, but to insult the staff and think of them as anything close to a flock of sheep is terrible. These are some of the kindest and most genuine people who dedicate their time to make yours better. We work as a true team and our team is solid in our foundations. We will disagree, as any team will, but we make each other better in the long run. So don't you dare think any less of our Staff team.

    To be clear on the original subject of this thread, the suggestion is denied. We aren't going to completely disallow the selling of the voter items because it's simply not traceable at this time. However, we're not going to encourage players to sell them by making them auctionable. This is a decision by the staff team to align with what the server's intended goals are and that's what we determine, not the players.

    It's about time we stop pandering to every little whim and want and start to focus on the future of EMC. All the lack in focus has done damage to the true nature of what we want the server to be, and what we want to focus on. We're never going to make everyone happy, so we work to what we have in mind and our intended demographic of a family friendly survival multiplayer server. If you have a problem with this focus, then you have a problem with the future of EMC.

    P.s. If you can't agree with yourself, why are we even having this discussion?
    Krysyy, Aug 23, 2018
    #13
    ShelLuser, Kephras and The_Boulder like this.
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