I don't like this anti-grief update

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by mba2012, Aug 27, 2016.

  1. So, it's taken me a few weeks to actually try out this new anti-grief update, but it took me less than five seconds to form an opinion on it. And it's not a favourable one. IMHO, this update backtracks on everything EMC has tried to make the wild over the last almost five years.

    When the LLO was started, we had a goal of fighting against the griefers, if they came, we'd just rebuild and move on. It didn't quite end up this way, but we never had a consistent issue. We were able to build roads together, railways together. Different people could contribute to different things. But now, we're going to have to bring players back from the dead to move a road or random sign here or there.

    I've never found griefing on EMC to be a major issue. Anything that happened was sorted out swiftly by staff and whilst inconvenient, was easily remedied. I can't do anything but think that this update was poorly thought out. All of this talk of empires and whatnot really had me thinking that EMC was aiming for the wild to be a place where you were free to go and build things, on your own or with others. But now, with this update, it's isolating players. You can only work with a set group of people, it can't be dynamic, everyone who contributes has to be known to you.

    This update protects us from a minority that rarely shows it's face in a more than mildly irritating fashion. The way I see it, any community outpost is now just a mess of protected blocks. They're basically useless as places of community construction now.

    I don't want to commentate too much, but I think EMC is (and has been for a long time) having an existential crisis of sorts. It doesn't know what it wants to be. It's bucking to the pressure of too many different subgroups, and disadvantaging others at the same time.

    I mean, dragon tombs and empires is what was originally promised all those years ago. Then a games server was added to the mix. Then the wastelands appeared, to change how people used the wild. Then this update came along and offered an opposing view on what we should be doing in the wild to any that was seen before.

    Just some food for thought.
  2. Some high quality food at that.
    Thanks for writing and sharing.
  3. Just to be clear, we all have our opinions on this and your's is just as valid as anyone's. However I have to strongly disagree.

    For myself, before this update I would not bother building too much in the wild because even in a slim chance and even just 1 time, griefing is not worth it. I've tried out quite a few other servers to see what they are like. Almost everyone of them has some sort of protection for wild building. EMC was behind that and are now catching up. I don't get what you would rather want to rebuild things over and over rather then having it protected.

    Of course there are always some initial hiccups with big updated like this. Working in large groups on a public build was a nightmare. Now that has been helped with a new command to assign all block protection to 1 person with all other on their friends list. Not sure if you have worked on any public builds but having to take time every single day to fix griefing on numerous builds that are here for those that want to use it.. this update is FAR from any sort of crisis.

    I've been part of a few outposts with others and a few more of just my own. I've maybe had 3 issues with griefing. Well to me that's 3 too many. Not everyone has respect for others people buildings. I, as well as many others, want this and have wanted it badly for a long time. Now we have it. Empires will add on to that. I've always wanted my outposts to be open to the public. I love building farms and other stuff and I've always wanted others to be able to use them as well. Now I can do that without much fear of having to rebuild daily.

    I don't really see your issue with community outposts though. If they are part of your outpost, wouldn't they be on your friends list and there for have no issues with breaking blocks?

    Just my opinion. Thank you for sharing yours :)
  4. I liked your post. I don't agree with it but I sincerely like it that you spoke up and shared your mind with us. Now, I'm not going to let this slide off into a "is not, is so!" discussion but I do hope that I can give you some examples which could resolve some of the problems you may run into.

    One point of small criticism on my part though... Please give it some time to actually try this out. I can fully agree that using this system on existing buildings can be rough. Especially if players have gone (but moderators can help).

    But I do hope that you'll eventually discover how easy it is to use this for new buildings. If you're building with a group of people then all you really have to do is to befriend them and you're good to go.

    It is true that protection kicked in around 2014 and that every uncommon block placed after that is now automatically protected. However, if you did things with people together then I would imagine that you could also be their /friend, which could solve the problem.

    Still: if you do run into this situation where you cannot remove a block then you can always ask moderators for assistance. They can teleport to you, they can vouch on behalf of anyone and as such can help you remove those structures if needed.

    But I also think there's something else you should consider... Unless we're talking about an established outpost then no one really has any business with changing other people's structures in the first place. Unless of course you got permission from them, but that would be very difficult for an outsider to know. Staff wouldn't even be able to verify for sure, especially if the majority of blocks was owned by someone else who is now long gone.

    What I'm saying here: the major thing which got changed was that some rules are now more strictly enforced.

    Now, that doesn't mean I don't agree with you. It can definitely be a major hassle for existing buildings and existing structures to start using this system. No arguments there, but that's where staff can help out. If you own a structure and you need to break some specific blocks then you can get staff to help out.

    But once you start using this system on new buildings then you may change your opinion. It is not that hard to use (just befriend people to give them permission) and it will simply apply to anything you build. And like I said: stuff which you build is yours already in the first place as per the rules.

    Quantity doesn't make quality. I've seen players totally devastated because they were now looking at having to spend hours on fixing something and basically lost most motivation to do so.

    One of the most given comments we at GRIP get: "It's not so much the blocks, its having to spend hours on trying to fix this shit is what's so depressing." (not a literal quote). I also know of a few players who actually quit (for a while) because of all that.

    Actually it can.

    But first of all, please keep in mind that unless you had permission from other players it was never ok in the first place to simply change or remove existing buildings at your own leisure. That is not something which got recently changed, that has been in effect long since I started playing. Just because you physically could doesn't mean that you were also automatically allowed to do so!

    If I build a road with a very specific goal in mind and someone were to find it, noticed how it was unfinished (without knowing my intentions) and just started building then that could have been considered griefing.

    But back to your example: /noprotectmode. You can still place blocks which are free to be removed, replaced and build upon by anyone. If you want to you can still do so.

    Existing outposts are, true. But that can be easily remedied.

    Just like with so many other things it's in my opinion simply an issue of having a rough start. I'm not denying that starting with this setup on existing buildings can be tricky. It's true. But honestly: once you're past that then you may get to see a whole new side of this system.
    607 likes this.
  5. I remember that one time when we got told EMC would never have anything like this because it's not what this server is about lol

    I guess things have changed drastically.
  6. I don't think you're quite grasping the scale of the issue we have at the LLO now. Take a look at this image. All of that construction in the top left is the LLO. It's been around for over four and a half years now. It's not very active right now, but at one point it was the biggest, most active outpost on EMC. The idea was that people could just join, build a house or whatever. There's a huge number of community buildings, roads and railways. As it grew, the community projects naturally expanded out with it. The road and railway system has probably been contributed to by over 50 different people. You joined by acknowledging this different people contributed to different things. We all helped each other, we'd build or fix houses for each other. It wasn't every player or small group for themselves, like this update pushes.

    We've been around for years and only had two large griefing events. And we're a huge, obvious target. We made no effort to hide our location or how to get there. But we still didn't have a huge problem. I just don't think this update was entirely necessary.

    I get that some people don't want to spend the hours fixing things. But it's going to take a tremendous number of hours now to sort out blocks that other people have placed, as part of a project or just randomly. More than it would take to fix any griefing.

    I'll admit, those of us who run outposts like this are now the minority. But years before even you joined, the demographic here was significantly different. Everyone was very much community minded and people could live in town and the wild at the same time. Now, the only thing you see on the forums are auctions or people selling things. I don't want this to devolve into a nostalgia fuelled rant, but I have to say, people on EMC have become very protective and introverted.

    My point is, there are still a few of us who want to run a community outpost, and this anti-grief update destroys most of our progress over the last two years and anything we want to do in the future. I just think that maybe the Empires idea should have been given higher priority. From what I've heard about it over the years, it'll be a much more collaborative approach, which I think is much better.
  7. I've thought about this for a while, and came to this conclusion:

    Like I told Shell ingame, I believe the anti griefing update is a really good update... for a part of the people. This part is the /friended, small group kind of people, and the people who live alone in the wild.

    Empires will be for a different kind of group, for the not /friended, and/or bigger, and/or more permanent groups, like the LLO. :)
    SoulPunisher, 607 and mba2012 like this.
  8. My friend, I grasp what you're saying, I honestly am.

    My point though.. You are right. You truly are. This system is not very friendly for already existing buildings. I know (somewhat) because I also rebuild an entire railway because of it.

    (Sounds cool right? Don't kid yourself: in comparison to some of your (random reader) buildings my words honestly mean nothing. 700 blocks? naaah).

    But this was also the point of my comment a little bit: for upcoming buildings it can seriously rock. People can now build in the wastelands without griefing.

    But my nice words do not help you. I see that.

    I looked you up my friend, and so far all I'm seeing is confirming my suspicions. You most certainly have roots into EMC's past, long before my time.

    And it would be my honor to try and help preserve that past if I can. I know... for all I know you could have 2 million in the bank (I honestly don't know but I always keep it in mind with older players) and don't care about this. But I have seen you a lot. No, not every time, you're not always in the picture so to speak but you were there when it counted. I noticed your comments on several EMC updates and in general I liked all of them (sorry, I can't rule out that I didn't actually click like on all of them) and that raises my awareness.

    Maybe its the bee, orange juice or the way I am (I'd bet on the latter!) but I always respect my elders. Sorry if that makes you feel awkward (not my intention!) but.. from my point of view you are.

    And I am not just saying so, I am now going to try and put my keyboard where my mouth is at.

    In 2 different ways... I am hereby donating at least 100k to this outpost solely for grief prevention. It is yours if you want (no, not just the money, I do insist on seeing its purpose through). I know its most likely not covering the whole part (then again... looking at the map I'm not too sure) but I do hope I can put a dent into your bothers.

    Disclaimer: I do not pull ... what the heck, no disclaimer today. Sorry! :p

    Please contact me, I'm sure we can work something out.
    607 and ThaKloned like this.
  9. We really don't need the money. There's practically no one left now to use it :p But that's the demographic change we've seen. It's gone from an outpost that dozens of people were active at, to an outpost with very few, if any at some times, active members.

    I can see that, but again, it really only works for some people. For me personally, I couldn't care less whether my building had protection or not. But I get that doesn't go for others.

    But grief protection would still be useful. However, all of my buildings are in large community outposts like the LLO. I just think that this update could have had more thought put into it to determine a good way to accommodate outposts.

    Others have mentioned that we should wait for empires, and I'm happy to do that. But this update has set a precedent and unless it is removed upon the release of empires, I don't see the problem I have now, going away.

    BTW, I don't have more than 2 million in the bank. I've never had any more than ~250k at any time, ever :p
  10. First and foremost: thanks for your elaborated answer. I sincerely appreciate it!

    At the time of writing I am in no condition to comment in depth here but you have my word that I will re-read this whole thread next week (heatwave or not!) and will think about ways EMC might be able to improve. That's no guarantee obviously. In the mean time I did set something else into motion.

    You didn't say this before but I had a hunch this played. That and your recent posts is what led up to the above. We may not agree on everything, totally not the point, but you are one of those players I deeply respect.

    Yah, for dozens for of reasons I may sometime get into but not just here because essays :p

    As much as I love this update I have to agree that it could easily wreck havoc in existing buildings.

    I have an idea. I dont' claim to have the perfect solution but I do have 'a' (possible) solution and I intend on pushing that forward.

    As a contribution team member... (note: I never spoke up like this, and in reality it makes no difference because contrib is a regular player in the end. Call me crazy if you must, I make a difference). SO... Having said that. As a contribution team member (read: someone who roughly knows the wiki & forums) I tend to agree. For existing buildings it can be a nuisance and I think it would be fair if EMC would try to come up with a way to compensate for that.

    Just so we're clear: as much high and mihgty this may sound it took both Uber_Corq & Kephras to make me thnk this way. Credit where credits due.
    607 and Uber_Corq like this.
  11. Why would they remove anti-griefing when empires comes out? They are pretty much the same thing, just this update was done first as a 'in the meantime' until empires.

    I would agree that having all blocks (on the auto protect list) that were placed from Nov 2014 to now could add some issues in some outposts. On the other hand if they were not protected, think of all the others that wanted this would feel if their huge outposts could now only be protected by paying for it or rebuilding. I can't really think of another way of doing this. Maybe established outposts could have been given a limited offer to protect their builds for free or a lump sum, but then that a ton more work for SS.

    There will always be some that don't like certain things about updates and that it ok. Just odd to see some NOT want their stuff protected :D
  12. They won't, but there's something else: an established Outpost ("Empire") would have controllable options comparable to our town residences (so the rumor goes). So in a way it would do this. Build within the controlled space and your blocks are protected from all BUT the outpost owner.

    My guess is as good as anyone elses here, but this is my take on the matter.

    And apologies for the horrid zpellking faults up there, I'll try to fix soonish.
    ThaKloned likes this.
  13. Ya that's what I mean. I think Aikar even said that this was added to help until empires comes out and we will have similar but limited control as we do in town.
    ShelLuser likes this.
  14. Well, I'm happy if my stuff is protected. But this method isn't my preferred method :p

    And I disagree that they are pretty much the same thing. From what I know, empires is meant to be a very much community minded, collaborative thing. Someone would claim land, then allow people to join the outpost and then they do what they want.

    I see this update as functioning in completely the opposite way. Someone's build is protected and restricted to just them or a small group of close friends. Even when empires comes out, this same problem will exist, and blocks will have a confusing layer of double protection. They don't need to remove this update, but I think some adjustments would be highly beneficial.
  15. If it were possible to claim a spot (we'll say the default is 5000x5000) and then have the ability to section of spots for others to have control of, then that would be great.

    I've not been a part of a large group like yours so I can't really speak to that. My current outpost is just me for now. (To far for friends to want to travel :p) What I want in the long run is my personal outpost that is also a place for others to visit, use farms that are made for public use but also restrict some access to areas that are for myself. I want to be able to open my outpost up to everyone but I don't want to be dealing with griefing none stop either. And without protection, I would be spending more time fixing then adding on new stuff.

    Not saying that I don't like others being at my outpost. I'm just the type that likes it on my own for the most part and have been this way before joined EMC. It's one of the reasons why I stayed. I could do my own thing in the wild, build in town with others or do something as a community.
    ShelLuser and mba2012 like this.
  16. This only affects my gold farm and even then it's pretty far out from spawn.

    Mba I agree with most of your points and things about the LLO and big outposts like them but no one really ventures out to these outposts anymore.
    Wasn't it a reference to EMC turning into a factions server or something? :p
  17. In case it was missed -- the protection is optional. Players can simply disable it when they build in the LLO and you can still play it your way.

    Since retroactive protection applied to builds after Jan-2014, it's likely that large parts of the LLO are still open to public contributions.
  18. There's also still large portions that were built after that but still by now long-gone players :/
    607 likes this.
  19. I'm trying my hardest not to rant xD
    mba2012 likes this.
  20. I hate the notifications you get every time you have someone break your block .-.