Changing Supporter Chat | Thoughts!

could you count the people who voted that Actually supported before and post what the Actual number is for that please? I'd like to see a more accurate number

And if people saying there is a lack of community is the reason why this idea as thought up and this poll was created, then that should have been stated originally. Otherwise it appears to be one of those "we think this, we're doing this" posts, rather than a "some of you want this, so we are doing this" posts.

Never said it was held against anyone. BUT at the same time, people should be able to state their how they feel without it being met by things such as "well feature X does this, which is why we're dropping feature Y". For example, I might be able to invite all supporters to a group chat to have a good conversation (which can be very very hard to have in town chat), but that doesn't mean it's best to do that. I can also just PM multiple people the same thing to have a group conversation, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have group chat.

I've met more friends in supporter chat than I have in town chat. Not because supporters are better than free players in any way at all, but because generally, there's a lot less conflict in supporter chat, and a lot more relaxed atmosphere.

If you want people to understand why the staff feel about something, that's fine. However, it should be done in a general way, rather than directed at specific players if you don't want people to feel that they're being targeted. If you want to see what other people are seeing, then listen to their initial points, rather than the large amounts of text they have to defend themselves, which is likely to miss out many more points, and instead have things defending why they felt the point initially (which if looked into on the original post, was probably already there).

If you want a healthy community, the community shouldn't have to defend themselves.

I actually posted on Xenforo's forums to ask this. No, it's not supported out the box, but it is one of the most trivial template edits ever to do it. Just make a section for feedback, and hide the post section if the posters =/= logged in user, and the user isn't staff. I'm willing to say that's around 150 characters max.

Just because things have been done a way in the past, it doesn't mean it's the best way. If I remember correctly, all the best discussion threads were very much "what do you think should happen" BEFORE the "this is what we think should happen" part. I want to say. The concept's fine, but the need to defend any statement against the staff thoughts of something isn't.

Sounds good

This is very true

The OP also stated about shop chat ... I voted yes for the inclusion of a shop chat - not necessarily the supporter differential ...

However, the shop chat - I don't like the fact of 'maybe' having chats that include certain words to be auto-moved to the shop channel ... that's assuming i'm talking about one thing - even if I really wasn't. It's a similar concept to the filter; some peoples' names have what the filter sees as a curse word in it... even if the actual word/name itself isn't a curse word at all ... If it's a filtered word it won't let you say it.... if it's a non-filtered word (yet people still clearly see it's a curse word) people may be reported and will be kicked/banned, anyways.

The supporter-switch i'm semi-partial to ... I agree with both what bro and krysyy are saying to some extent. When I was a supporter I liked the fact that it was a chat that we payed for and could feel like we had some sort of freedom to escape from having to talk over 50 non-supporters in chat ... and not have our messages flood to the bottom of the screen (or out of view completely).... and if you were in the wild, it was easy to be like...

S eklektoi: yo bro, want to come help me mine?
S Bro_im_infinite: naw mang, i'm too busy working on my tree farm.
S ItsMeMatheus: I'll come help, I have nothing better to do right now.
S eklektoi: kk

Not only is it easier to see this in the wild without it flooding to the bottom ... but it's a sense of privacy too; imagine there was a supporter-only build on utopia or a thread on the supporter forums.... it would be awkward to say it in town chat ... and have non-supporters be like 'I can't view this.... ekl- fix the link plox'

I suppose I could always pm bro, but that's a one on one convo - maybe I want to speak to all of the supporters indirectly? Or, moreover, maybe I don't have time to invite all of the supporters to a group convo, and just have a few seconds to go on, switch to supporters, say what I need - and leave.

-------------

On the flip side of this ... as a non supporter, I would view supporter convos as always feeling like they're ignoring me, or that i'm not including in conversations, especially if they were all in the wild talking, and I was in town... and no matter how hard I would try - I couldn't talk to that supporter, without pming them.

But... pming a supporter never was an issue with me... and there are plenty of non-supporters to talk to in town if the supporter wasn't in town.

*The only problem I have in chat ... with non-supporters ... is the colour of non-supporter names

It's defaulted as white...

text is also defaulted as white

If you have 20 people trying to talk in chat, you honestly can't read what people are saying half the time. (and I understand why supporters would want exclusion from the mainstream)

Because this is what a convo would look like with just non-supporters:

T random_1: Anyone sell picks?
T eklektoi: Hey Elite, you want to come help me real quick?
T WCG_Elite: eklektoi, are you meaning me? There's two elites, hehe
T random_2: Drop party at 3027 in 20 minutes.
T Elite: Naw, WCG - think he's meaning me :3 ... guess it is confusing having two of us online... but general people call me elite, so idk
T eklektoi: oh... yeh I was just meaning Elite - sorry WCG
T random_1: hmm... anyone sell diamond picks?

See? it just looks like a huge blop ... and at a quick glance, you can't tell someone's name from their message... you have to look very carefully to read. If non-supporters names (by default) or the text (by default) was a slightly different colour ... I wouldn't have trouble reading main chat at all, and it would be easier to read - That's why I always assumed supporters used another chat - because that is very hard to distinguish what people are saying.

#EndRant

Hold the phone, when (and why) is this an argument?
A healthy discussion is one thing, and I am all for it. And I cannot agree more with what Jack's said, most of his points are spot-on regarding community polling and interaction. Krysyy, I don't want to sound like I'm calling you out here or anything, but you have a tendency to form strong personal opinions and then get super-defensive about it when people question them. You may have the best intentions in the world and the strongest reasons possible for said opinions, but if your goal is to promote healthy discussion, defending your point of view so tenaciously just makes people throw up their hands and say "Screw it, they'll do what they want anyway, my opinion doesn't matter." That's the honest truth, and I can think of at least a few people I know who've hit that point. Some of them are even still on EMC.

Take a deep breath, divorce your personal feelings from the discussion for a minute, and consider why there's a dissenting opinion, rather than trying to crush* it by making people "defend themselves" and their point of view. A truly healthy discourse is one where you try to understand the other person, not undermine them.

I've already explained my personal feelings on it - while I'm not currently a supporter, the month I was diamond showed me why some members would prefer to keep that chat. It's not just about making EMC more social, but who you're being social with. I'm not ten years old anymore, I don't have the patience or willpower to deal with that maturity level on a frequent basis. If my goal was to be a shaper and mentor of younger minds, I'd have been a teacher (and likely, found a woman who wanted kids). Once more, I'm obviously in the minority here, and that suits me fine, but my earlier point stands - global town chat is not a fair replacement for supporter chat. Not when "plz come to my shop" and "how do u claim a rez?" are the usual topics every ten minutes. Being subjected to that in the wild would just be one more reason to turn chat off altogether.

Of course you wouldn't say it, that would be silly. Especially from a community manager. However it's implied in the way you present yourself. It may not be your intention to do so, but it's there all the same. I'm just pointing it out so you can be aware of that, and perhaps be a little more... temperate going forward. Drifting off-topic though.

The core issue at work here is that some people don't want to be social, at least in town chat. I think it might be more productive to identify why and fix that problem, if possible, rather than forcing everyone into the same boat and assuming they'll just learn to get along.

Yay Changing Supporter Chat =I
*Scuttles Away*

I believe by "defend their position in the argument" she meant in the legal way. When you have a healthy debate, each side has its "argument." Not that we are "arguing" over things. I think she also tried to clear this up in her last post. That said, I think Kephras has a point:

...and what I get out of it is that Krysyyjane9191 could word things differently sometimes, and try not to sound like you are defending one side or another of the debate. Instead, just seek to understand why someone else feels the way they do. Then, if you disagree, you don't necessesarily have to say so. Or you could say something like "I understand 'X, Y, Z' is why you feel this way about this subject. Even though players who feel the way you do may be in the minority, Staff will try to take your opinions and feelings into account as we make a decision on this."

That's partially correct. It's not the fact that players are new that qualifies whether I want to listen to what they have to say. See below for more comments on this.

I read those posts. The thing is, I disagree with points made in them. You quoted Aikar as having said:


"There was no reason that chat couldn't of been had in town. What if Town chat was dead at that moment? Then to all the free members in Town, it looks like EMC sucks cause noones chatting.
Group chat hurt the social aspect of EMC quite a lot, so having people chatting in so many other places OUTSIDE of town chat makes town look like nothing but newbie questions and spam. We need to bring the chit chat back."


If players think EMC sucks just because noone is talking in town chat, the problem lies with that player. I don't know if there are particular SMP servers that are just dead all the time, but the servers I've been have their busy times and their dead times. Telling players that they should feel obligated to speak in Town Chat just so that Town Chat isn't silent is rediculous in my opinion. By saying you are going to give players the option to turn off Town Chat completely, you are acknowledging this fact.

Your own quote was to the effect that if Town Chat was quiet, then new players would feel "shunned" and "learn to be quiet" and "the Empire will lose it's ability to communicate and will become a ghost town in chat."

I don't know how you reach these conclusions, but they seem rediculous to me as well. In fact, in just over a year of being on EMC I've seen just the opposite to be the case. Often there is so much chatter in Town Chat, about things I don't care about, that sometimes I just tune it out unless I hear the little *ding* that means someone PM'd me or mentioned my name in chat.

Rarely has it been that I've seen someone asking a question or seeking assistance and not getting a response. And the few times where that was the case, they usually were impatient and by the time I noticed they had already logged off. It was also usually regarding something they could have figured out the answer to on their own. So, I don't know if they were just really young or just people who need to learn some patience and self-initiative.

I doubt that supporters who have used Suporter Chat have lost their ability to communicate in Town Chat, and if new players lose their ability to communicate just because they don't get spoken to every time they want someone to talk to, then they're idiots (Or maybe just 10 years old and should be encouraged to find some friends in real life instead of getting depressed because no-one happens to want to speak to them Right Now in an online game).

The above snippets reinforce the points I was trying to make earlier. It's not that we don't want to talk to new players. I do so often. I help answer questions. I go to visit them on their newly claimed Res and welcome them to EMC. I ask them if they need anything.

Veteran and more mature players want someplace where they can easily have interesting conversation without the annoyance of the babble that so often occurs from new and immature players. This does not mean that the new players get ignored completely. And saying "well you can just turn off chat completely and Group Chat or PM" does not sound to me like a better alternative. It is actually worse, because then yes, you are ignoring completely any new players in Town Chat.

If possible, I like the idea presented earlier by someone regarding being able to change the color of Town Chat, combined with the idea of a separate channel for more veteran players. That way both channels can be On, but the Town chat would not be as intrusive. If the channel was for all veteran players older than X number of days, then it's not so excluding as Supporter Chat currently is. This wouldn't be a complete guarantee that you wouldn't get immature people in the channel who have been long-time EMC players, but it would act to filter some of the garbage that is discussed in Town Chat that irritates some players.

In my opinion, even if you decide to get rid of supporter chat, can we at least take veteran chat into consideration. Maybe connect it with the veteran trophy on the site. Players who are 1 year or older on EMC would get access to it.

So global and supporter will be implemented?! YAY!

Coming into this a bit late, but I'm going to make a point.

The reason people don't want to be social is because they are already so used to having a private chat for supporters and they don't want to change. There also comes the issue of some people thinking they are superior to people who don't pay (they aren't) and so they feel they need their own chat channel because they're paying and others aren't.

I think you're way off base here.

I do concede that there may be some who fit your description, but I don't think it represents the majority. I know there have been a lot of posts on this thread and it can be a pain to read through them all, but I think if you took the time to read back through the last couple of pages you would see that there are plenty of reasons for players to like Supporter Chat. I'm personally not a currently a supporter and have not been in the past, but I still believe there are benefits to the Supporter Chat, as is clear from my previous thread comments.

As long as I can turn off town chat whilst i am in the wild i guess thats ok. Shame that people will think me rude when in fact i am stopping chat overload spamming my screen and getting me killed, but i will have to live with that.

As for colours., I am ignoring most admin announcements anyway because the overwhelming use of multicolours and double lines of dashes is not worth the mental energy to disentangle. I like the idea of colours for names in chat, or anywhere where the colours actually mean something beyond 'LOOK AT ME!!!!!'

No one's going to think you rude if you get attacked and need to defend yourself. If you really have to respond to something in chat, just dig yourself a little trench or alleyway and seal it, maybe a torch for good measure - y'know, basic survival stuff. For the most part, if you don't answer right away, and come back with a response a minute or two later "sry, creeper tried to hug me," "one sec, zombie on my face," people will understand and be cool with it.

Bottom line, pay attention to what you're doing first, then worry about the chatbox. Doesn't matter if it's town chat, supporter, group, or a whisper.