Let's take them one at a time... It's never been my experience that anyone has been "banned for their beliefs," though they may have been terminated for expressing those beliefs in a hostile manner (one that "violates the terms of service"). Be that as it may, I don't see a problem with this one, although I strongly disagree that anything in the TOS "fosters a very insecure and unfair environment" as you put it. Could leave this at just the first line and it would still serve its purpose. In a general sense, I strongly advise you to steer clear of defensive language like "A member is entitled to feel as if they are being heard not negated and belittled," as it will only invite a sense of victimhood and encourage drama. All members can view the reason for a ban by typing /p [name] of the banned party. In my experience, staff provides reasons for mutes, as well as warnings beforehand where applicable. The rest of this proposed amendment I disagree with outright, on the basis that there is already an appeals system in place - permitting any kind of protest takes power away from the staff and turns punishment into a popularity contest. Just look at the thread for Caden if you don't believe me. Solid no, here, and I suspect EMC staff will back me up on this. *Note that vocally "disagreeing" with someone's ban is not the same as "protesting" it. The right to disagree with staff actions is simply speaking your mind, which as far as I'm aware is permissible under the current rules anyway, but protesting with the hope / expectation of change is not something I want or expect to see happen. The "oversight" committee of EMC is the playerbase at large. Any player, regardless of their time on the server, has the right to voice disagreement with staff or server action, with the exact same level of power as you suggest here. A "committee" is only adding a layer of useless bureaucracy above that right. Moreover, I find your suggestion of restriction by days active (only "old" members) to be discriminatory and unfair to newer members - anyone can prove themselves valuable to the community if they take the time to do so, and adding this restriction only serves to silence them. *To put it another way, anyone who signs up on these forums is expressing some level of interest in the direction of EMC and its community, staff actions included. There is already an appropriate channel for discussing staff actions. Counter-Proposal: -Players have the right to request an arbiter or mediator in the event they experience staff actions they see as unfair or take issue with. The role, rights, and methods of selecting an arbiter can be discussed in further detail. No arbiter shall accept compensation (items, rupees, "gifts," or otherwise) for their role in handling any dispute. Seems superfluous, aside from the use of defensive language. I may not agree with the overly-aggressive tone in that "terminated at any time for any reason" bit, but having "been around the block" for many years in many different communities, I acknowledge that such language is necessary and not to be undermined. Seems like you could roll this into Amendment II without losing anything important. I'd be surprised to learn this isn't already the case, but agreed. Two words: "Repeat Offenders." Many people can learn from a first offense. I don't believe those that continue to misbehave should be subject to the same level of discipline as someone who repeatedly ignores and breaks the rules. I also reiterate my disagreement with your suggestion of a committee, and propose personal arbitration instead. Leaving this one for the more political-minded to debate. *Or Krysyy, as her role as Community Manager means the most direct action and responsibility when dealing with the community. Needs rewording too, but that's just the writer in me nitpicking.
To this statment I am not saying they do everything. They made the decision to become a staff member, it was no forced upon them. I'm not saying they might not have something else to do either, or that they have to be on all the time. Redress IV states that staff should work to resolve each report they are presented with. I highly doubt we need god who can do everything at once for that. P.s. What does mortality have to do with anything lol.
Thank you, I will adjust the language in this amendment. This was my first intentions. I will revise it to convey such. This very well might be the case, however it would also mean staff would not have to worry about policing themselves, free up more time for them to help others, ect. If this Amendment was to stay it will have to be debated seperately on it specific provisions. Thus noted and removed. I kinda agree. However, direction of the server changes from time to time. I'm not just a passenger on a ship, I am deeply involved and invested in the EMC and SMP2 community. So to that reference I respectfully disagree. This seems like a great Idea and I thank you greatly for proposing it. Credit will be given to you in the end if enacted, for this specific idea. Duly noted. This is just a simple divergence in opinion. I don't believe common sense restrictions will impede this server in even the slightest. Duly noted Provision will be added that repeated offenders will be treated as such under guidelines. Just like in real life. If you are a repeat offender the punishment gets more severe. Indeed, that was my mistake. I thank you greatly for your constructive criticism on this bill and I hope to include your input and make it more to your approval.
what god isnt immortal? and i still dont see how this is a good thing, if this would be brought to light all i could see is a more chaotic EMC where fights are breaking out bout political/religious beliefs to where how it is now is peaceful and calm since those arent allowed to be mentioned, EMC is a place where one willingly follows these rules to keep a calm and peaceful server, if people are able to say whatever is on their minds then you will have disputes going on over what is or isnt true and etc. (sorry ift hats a repeat) i see it as the way it is now is best for everyone, the staff are in my opinion doing a the greatest job ive seen compared to other servers, i could give you a prime example of a bad staff member from a different server if you want to talk bout injustice, im currently under the impression that you dont understand just how many reports that the great staff of EMC get daily and have to try and resolve, non of which in my experience ever done in town chat, and a question i have is, What if this gets more "No" responses than "Yes"?
Then it will not be a problem to enact this clarification. In addition, I'm sorry that you view my opinion as ignorance. Contrary to the perception I did not take 6 hours of my day to disturb the "calm and peaceful server" as you say. Why would I, me a human being that has numerous other things to do that could better occupy my time, spend it here, debating with you the legitimacy of my argument if I did not have it on go authority my claims and grievances. You can judge my Bill all you want, if you see something wrong, tell me please but please don't insult my intellect by suggesting a hypothetical and providing no evidence to substantiate your claims. What would you propose. and if nothing I turn to you and say that nothing is perfect or without flaws. I ask that you be respectful as well. What factual evidence can you produce to substantiate your claims that these simple clarifications will lead to the chaos you speak of. Maybe then I will change my mind. I am opened minded, maybe parts of my bill need to be revised, but no harm can come from a simple clarification of the rules and terms of services. All that EMC has is what is explictely prohibited. However, I believe there needs to also be something that explicitly protects certain rights of each EMC member, So that I can be assure mistakes of the past won't be repeated. If all the staff can provide me with is to just trust them that things won't revert back to the old ways then I guess I have to or do I? That's the point of the amendments. To ensure in the future the progresses that we've made won't be lost and that some new progress might even be made. P.s. Exacltly gods are immortal, so wouldn't Immortal gods be redundant?
You know how there are all sorts of people in the real world that twist the rules to their own uses and use loopholes to do bad things? They exist here too, but: "We also reserve the right to terminate any account entirely without reason, should we determine the user causes too much trouble while utilizing our services." This prevents them from getting away with things. You start tying up EMC's enforcement hands in a bureaucratic mess, you're going to make this place a lot less fun for the players, and more importantly for the staff. If you make being a staff member not fun, then the kind of people who want to do it will be not fun. I don't know what brought this forth, but imo this is solving your problem at the expense of the larger community.
"Amendment II. A member of the community shall be allowed to express constructive criticism of the direction of the Server openly. This includes the ability of individuals to suggest ideas to the server's growth contrary to those held by the EMC administration. If a member is offended by just the mere proposal of an idea. The forum should not be deleted, only the post of the person who had nothing constructive or positive to say. A member is entitled to feel as if they are being heard not negated and belittled. A member is entitled to his suggestion without staff associating it with other people’s comments." - We can do that already, many players have expressed some criticism to the server and staff have listened to them. -"person who had nothing constructive or positive to say." So you want to delete a post of constructive criticism, from someone who is criticizing your post... -"A member is entitled to his suggestion without staff associating it with other people’s comments." Your right, "down in the DM" -"A member is currently allowed to petition a ban and or mute, however we like to extend a right of peaceful protest to that of individuals related to the one banned, who feel that a ban would’ve been unfair, the right to protest. This includes that staff upon request, will have to divulge the reasoning behind a ban." I can see it now, everyone lines up as their Minecraft user with banners asking staff for a response, then that one user starts insulting staff. Not everyone would go along with a peaceful protest on a Internet Server. -"A member is entitled to a fair and uniformed sentencing guideline and that they receive the same sentencing for breaking a rule that someone else received. They are also entitled to an unbiased appeal. " Personally, I've never been banned. But when I've had an issue I needed to be dealt with, I've contacted Krysyy who I feel like is the perfect person to go to for an unbiased request/issue. -"After a week the poll should be closed and it most have ⅔ more yes votes then no. Meaning it has to have 66.6% or more of the votes casted to pass to administrative approval. This will go directly to Krysyy and Aikar to be finally approved and added to this bill." Oh yes, let the alts on and let the person banned or punished make some votes. Oh and don't forget all the children playing on here who we believe can make a judgement call this great. If they were banned, there was a reason behind it and it was for the server's good will. If they hacked, and this went through what's t stop them from doing it again because they know that they will go through this poll again.
Now, what I said is just constructive criticism. Had to add that since I feared I was loosing space on my comment.
I liked the EMC Bill of Rights because one way or another SSRC put time and effort into it and I appreciate that. I may not agree with it, that's besides the point here, but I think the effort alone deserves some respect. However, having said that, the whole thing leaves me with one simple question: what exactly are you trying to solve? Apart from what has been said above I get the general impression that the Bill doesn't address anything new; most of the stuff in there is already applicable. Expressing yourself: it happens and it's allowed. Provided, obviously, that it doesn't cause drama. I've seen a players thread get locked prematurely (before any comments were given) but the motivation of that lock wasn't so much to deny the player his rant, but more so to prevent drama from inciting. Something which a previous thread about the same topic (more or less) had already shown. The only time staff really did censor players was during that April first teasing: players who posted too critical comments found their posts to be temporarily "deleted" (hidden) because it was "offtopic" (read: too much risk of spoiling the truth). Surely we don't hold that against the staff anymore? In fact I got proof that you can even criticize staff in public and your voice won't be taken away. I've done that myself on two occasions, the first might not have been the brightest of my ideas (but I'm still somewhat proud that staff listened and decided to follow up on my suggestion) but the second was fully on the mark. It got acknowledged as well and the whole thing was resolved in a few hours. Thing is: if I can do that then so can anyone else. All it takes is making sure to be polite and respectful (and even if you fail a small bit on that then it's still not being held against you right away, as long as you don't become plain out abusive of course). And then there's the length. I know of plenty of players who already have some problems with the length of the rules and I've seen players break some (nothing too dramatic!) while they were simply unaware of doing that. Even though they said to have been reading them. One of the reasons (IMO) was that the 10th rule used to list 10 more rules, which confused some players. Each to their own but I cannot help feel that replacing the rules with this Bill of Rights (which I think is the intention here) is only going to make this worse. Not to mention adding more confusing as well (but that's just a hunch on my part). However.... I do agree with your comment about moderators who could elaborate a little bit about their actions (Grievance IV) if applicable. Seeing a thread locked "just like that" can give out very wrong impressions. That's why I really appreciate it when a staff member explicitly mentions what's going on: "Thread locked at the request of the OP" for example. It's also why I write a small motivation myself if I decide to have my thread locked. Same applies to chat. Sometimes it honestly does happens that a moderator tries to stop something by merely saying "those are the rules". It happens from time to time. I have to agree that a brief motivation can really make a difference here. Heck, it is exactly how I once backed up a moderator because some players were calling them out to explain why they couldn't continue with their chatting (there was a fun convo going on, but it honestly bordered the lines of abuse. Thing is: there was no abuse intended at all, it was just players goofing). To which I responded and the whole thing stopped, and even more bizarre: some players apologized to me. But all I did was merely (briefly) explaining why it could be a bad thing if they continued. Nothing more or less. Within that context I agree that this can definitely help. But I'd also like to note that these things hardly happen either. Most of all, I'd like to point your attention to player moderators. This is honestly one of the "features" of EMC which I might even value the most: most of the time it's the community itself which moderates and/or corrects the community. Sure, it's not always perfect and obviously you sometimes get just as much "spam" from other players saying "don't do that" as you had from the original spammer. I've seen that happening too But it still works most of the time! A lot, if not most, conflicts usually get resolved without the help of a moderator. And that accounts for something as well. Which is also something to consider with Grievance IV. What if other players had already explained why doing something is bad? Then I can well understand that a moderator would resort to simply acknowledging what has already been said and tell the players to drop it already. If they want motivation then they only have to scroll up. Even so: I do agree that this item is something the staff could pay some attention to. But once again I need to ask: what are you trying to solve or address here exactly?
Sorry, I still think this is honestly useless for a server for Minecraft... This whole thread to me sounds like the OP had either their self banned before or a friend got banned for a "silly reason." I see no need for a document that shows us everything that's already in the rules section of the forum.... No offense to you mate, but this is obviously ridiculous. We are literally a bunch of mixed-aged players playing Minecraft on a great server. Sure, your views will fight my own, but all I see here is an outcry to a recent happening in disguise to twist rules into your own way. There's a word for that, but I'm sleepy and can't think of it right now.. Aaaanyway, I want you to know I will not support this. It is mundane and unneeded. We are playing a video game here son, not starting a new nation.
This seems to be the issue behind this thread. Staff today are not what they were when you first started. Heck staff today are not what they were when I first became staff. We are an ever progressing movement. We take seriously all thoughts and ideas proposed by the community. Moderators are normal players. We handle the small day to day things that need to be handled. We get called 20 times when we log in to handle things that you would think could be handled without intervention. You get offended by everything and assume people are bullying you. You have stated it a few times in this thread alone. I state this to point out that people feel different levels of offense differently. As a mod I have to take into account just the rules that were broken. When I ban someone it generally bugs me, and I have only done it for extreme cases, Greifing Sexual references. Hate crimes so on. I can not imagine anyone being banned for chat related offenses such as just being rude. Also being rude means different things to different players. I think telling someone to shut up in town chat is rude. Some may not see it that way. We as moderators do not police ourselves. We are just players who help out players. We have staff above us who handle the policing. And staff above them who police them and all others. A player formed oversight committee is something that will never work. Players who are not staff can not see the tools and references we use to make the decisions we make. I am not asking you to trust me as you have no trust in staff but I can tell you that anyone who has a ban placed on them has extensive reasoning's listed. Furthermore many many bans get appealed successfully. We as moderators hate to see people leave the community who have a genuine love of the community and the game. One of the main reasons players as long as your self can stay and play and enjoy the game is because the players who just come in to cause havoc are dealt with quickly and efficiently leaving your town chat and your builds safe and quiet. As I have already stated that an oversight committee would be pointless I would like to state that your exclusion of anyone under 700 days old is shameful. You are trying to better players life in game and you exclude half the player base in one sentence. ( This is speculation as I have no idea what the numbers are of player length.) I myself was chosen to be a mod in under 400 days /played. I have 15 years management experience outside of emc and I assume that and my general helpful nature was used in my selection. You as a player can not just lump out half the other players just because they are too " young ". Disclaimer. This post is mine and mine alone. It should not be thought of as a general statement from staff or anyone other then TDMR. Any issues with it can be directed at TDMR or placed with the CM at pmcm.emc.gs
Ok I need to get a small amount of things off my mind... First, wow you guys write long paragraphs.... That's a lot of reading and I can't really do that right now with the state that I am... Second, this is a game right? Or is this some real life thing were we punch trees with our hands? ( I wouldn't want to do that!) and yes I do see your point you want to know your rights on emc.. Well you been playing for a long time and now all of a sudden you want to know what you can and cannot do? I think this "game" "(if you think this is real)" has a rules page and a Eula page.. I don't know.. I just see this as a stupid way to cause drama..
Yeah, this is the hard part actually. It is but a game, but on the other hand EMC has turned into much more than a mere game for me. It's where I meet friends, where I talk to people about all different kinds of things, where I admire people's creativity, where I'm having fun and even where I sometimes get utterly frustrated. To me EMC has become so much more than a game. And I'm sure the same applies to many others here. And that sometimes drives people to go that extra mileage, even if that might sometimes seem a little silly or off to others. I think I can seriously say that for some people EMC has become a way of (their) life.
the emc community has a bill of rights, its the rules page, you have the right to follow them. as far as "changing moderator opinions" times change, rules are updated if they are found to not work best with the community. if anything mods are incredibly lax nowaday's when i was a mod you could be banned for a whole lot less and the appeal system was incredibly bias if a mod didnt want you back. just quit being butthurt yall and if you think a mod is abusing their power bother krysyy about it or just tell them in a private message.
Oh and I find emc as a apart of my life too, I have made friends on here that understand me like other people. I see them as my family. But at the end of the day you know that they are there for you and you are there for them and the only thing that helps you communicate is this game.
Ok, you say you want to give the people the freedom to say whats on there minds, not everyone is able to keep their tongues in their mouths especially when it comes to politics and religion, and their are players who are ignorant and rude bout others views, if you let people go and talk bout these subjects it will cause fights, plain and simple, i cant count the numerous times ive encountered this problem on other servers nor to mention the players who take rudeness to an extreme, and as for Staff, like i said, the staff of EMC have been the greatest ive come acrossed, and i can certainly vouch on their unbiasness towards players. And if you want hard facts, you live in the US, so you know how crap the system is, would you rather have EMC be like the USA? if yes then i will say no more as im not sure bout others but i for one definitely dont want EMC to turn out that way, EMC is perfect how it is now and will get better with the many updates to be released.
I like to think of EMC as a social bar with minigames at each table. You talk to your friends while playing these games. It's not just a game in my opinion but instead a place where I got to talk to just about anyone I please without having to worry about distance, religion, political stance, and ethnicity or even age restrictions. EMC is a free place to talk to people about all sorts of stuff and that's why I don't see me leaving at all. (Just quoted Shel for the sheer reason of quoting something similar to what I wanted to say)
