[DEBATE] Presidential Election - 2016 (closing Nov 22)

The 2nd world war lasted for us from Dec 7, 1941 to Sept 2, 1945. We have been in Iraq for 13 years. Are you saying we should just keep armies in the middle east forever? Is it our job to wage all the wars in the world? Do you know how many innocent children we have killed since invading? Will you join the army and go there to fight a war with no end in sight? You want us to be strong and we already spend nearly as much as the rest of the world combined. Is that not enough? Then you complain about the debt. How can we do anything about the debt if we continue spending so much on the military. Trump has said he wants to increase spending on the military by a huge amount and also cut taxes on everyone. How can he do that without exploding the debt? I really want to understand what the rational is on these issues.

On another note. You want us to have a great relationship with Putin and China. We will then need to allow Putin to have Ukraine and China to annex the South China Sea. Both of these things have received international condemnation. So you think we should just let them have these things? How will the rest of the world see us if we do?

You take things too literally. How about I say Obama allowed ISIS to spread to what it is today because he pulled out in the middle of the power-hole. Plus, when ISIS beheaded the journalist and everyone saw how horrible it was, we didn't take it seriously and wipe them out. Period. End of story.

You have your history backwards. Germany was WEAK after WW1 because of the Treaty of Versailles. They were split into 2 countries West and East Germany, they were put into huge debt because they had to pay for all the damages caused in the war, AND they had to reduce their military severely. Germany rose in power because Adolf Hitler defied the Treaty little by little and the world only wagged their fingers and did nothing militarily to stop them. Adolf united West and East Germany, rebuilt the military, and formed alliances in Europe/elsewhere, then invaded Poland and WW2 began.

Okay, apparently I did get replied to.

You're treated exactly how you deserve as the big bad global policeman, how these powers have always been treated, and the US acts just as dirty as the ones it sought to destroy a century or two ago. There will always be hate from other countries, accept it.

No, not really. We hate you being there because we don't want you snooting around in our countries and sticking your nose into business where it doesn't belong, and then dragging us into wars we have no place being in. We're not jealous - in fact places like the UK and such want to be left alone in isolation and have no part in world politics - we just want the US to go away and mind its own business. It causes more harm than good in a lot of cases, and will often act on its own free will without UN approval, which is disgusting.

I'm not saying to let them operate like that. I'm just saying to stop acting with military aggression. Diplomacy works. If it doesn't, sure, go shoot them up, just know innocent people are going to get hurt and it will often weigh on the people of the attacking country.

What the world powers want is more power. Undermining and screwing over the other world powers is how they get more power. Trump can't change that - he'll get a liking from Russia, sure, but not from China.

And what do you think those countries are trying to do? I don't think the Greek government is sat there waiting around for a miracle. They're trying to get stuff fixed but it's not exactly easy when every other country hates what you're trying to do and shoots you down, forcing you to impose austerity on your own people, which creates riots and civil unrest. They need foreign aid, America gives the foreign aid, that's its job. You want it to be the world's top power, that's the price you pay.

Want to keep the new world order alive? Stabilise the Balkans - a big part of the old world order the UK could never fix. Invest in them, sort out the whole issue of Kosovo's independence from Serbia in a way that gives the people there no discrimination but keeps it part of Serbia (Americans hate it when their constitution is broken, but when another country's constitution is broken, they're fine with it?), help sort out the issue of Republika Srpska wanting to be part of Serbia and the other half of Bosnia wanting to be part of Croatia, get Greece on its feet, help repair the relations between every other Balkan country and Albania. There's a way to fix the 'melting pot of Europe' after all these past 200 years of it being unstable, but those countries can't do it on their own. I use this as an example because the US knows full well what it can do there but it's doing it entirely wrong. I'd use the Middle East, but its clear the US has no good plan for that.

Says the one who got a lot of what followed this post completely wrong lol, and then just repeated what I learned for my qualification in History lol

Dang. Everyone is ganging up on me so much that I can't quote them all without taking up an entire page. So let me just give some more general statements to just cover everything that I read.

1.) I have seen that people have said that 'I cannot stop terrorism'. Which is false. I CAN by electing a president that will serve in my interested. Cough Trump cough. Enough said there.

2.) Fear and respect is what needs to happen for the US to thrive. We need to be feared, so no one rises to oppose us. We also need to be respected, which we are not. Look at Russia. We don't "respect Russia" because solely of Obama not wanting to work with Putin. Which I don't understand. Russia can be an invaluable asset to eliminating ISIS and maybe even North Korea. He is a fool for that.

3.) It is very sad that some of you think that terrorism isn't worth fighting. Like I said earlier, I hope you all enjoy seeing people being beheaded on the news. Because that will continue and spread by not taking any action and letting countries like Iraq and Syria deal with it themselves. It became our problem with ISIS targeted us by beheading our journalists and by declaring war on the US. Our war on terrorism needs to exist for the safety of the world. Not just ourselves.

4.) I don't contradict myself as I've seen stated before. You just fail to understand what I am talking about. The United States needs to be more self-focused. We have problems that need to be fixed here. So we should fix them. However, if threats to OUR security/economy evolve somewhere else in the world or threaten our allies, then we need to step in. Plain and simple. If we are threatened by an outside force, then we need to deal with it because it is in our best interest. It was in our best interest to eliminate the dictators of Iraq and Syria, so we did. You all blame the US for the rise of ISIS and Al Quida, but the truth is, if we hadn't done that, then those dictators would have continued with their evil. You all forget all too easily that Iraq under Saddam was working very hard to obtain nuclear weapons to fire them as Israel, our number 1 ally. So PICK YOUR POISON FOLKS! Seriously...

5.)

This one I do want to quote because these assumptions on what I meant are blown way out of proportion. Let me start my numbered list over for this one, actually.
1.) If it protects us and serves in our interests, then yes. It is the job of the military to stay in the middle east. Period. They PROTECT and SERVE. That is what they do.
2.)It is not our job to wage all wars in the world. But we should participate in those that affect our allies and ourselves. That's the whole point of allies. We fight for them, they fight for us. We support them, they support us.
3.)No, I do not know how many innocent children have died. But that is what I am trying to prevent. Terrorists attack way more than just children.
4.)We spend all that money and it is wasted. That's why we are trillions in debt. Have any problems with the world been fixed with all that money? Not really. So no, it is not enough. We need a president who can spend money wisely. A business man. Need I say more?
5.)We do NOT spend a ton of money on the military. Obama has cut the military spending by 15% over his first 4 years in office. He did propose a raise in military spending in 2015, but it only raised it by 6%. So we do spend money on the military, but it is not as much as it used to be or should be in a day and age like this.
6.)You must not understand that taxes are not the only way the government makes money. I will let you do your own research on that one.
7.)Putin wants those countries for many reasons I presume, but no, we should not let them take over those countries. But we should be allies with the 2 of them. That's all i'm saying.

You say 'fight terrorism' and support the US acting like terrorists to achieve that.

I can't make sense of that.

This appeared after I submitted my last post, so now I can address this one more personally.

1.) The UK is our allies. So why do you hate US? You should be allowing us to be there and welcome us as friends. So I don't understand that logic.

2.)Good luck negotiating with terrorists who behead people, blow themselves up in the name of Allah, and kill even other Islams for not following the Koran closely enough. You cannot negotiate with terrorists. Which is why that term started in the United States. "We don't negotiate with terrorists."

3.)Undermining and screwing over other countries is politics and its business. Businesses screw over people all the time. Countries do it too. Its politics, its business, it happens. We cannot take the blame for other countries making bad decisions with other countries.

4.)They are trying to fix their problems sure, but they were struggling to do it on their own. So Obama sent 8.4 BILLION to help them pay off their debts after the crisis. This also goes into what someone else said about America not helping Greece in their economy crisis. Totally false. Do your research. Going back to the 8.4 billion thing, that was a waste of money. That money was just sent there for them to pay their bills. It didn't fix anything. That money could have been better spent.

We fear terrorists, which is why we don't put our troops on the line. They should fear us. Simple as that. If they don't fear us, they will rise. So yes, in a way, we need to put the terror in them.

Before anyone says, "How are we different from them?" Consider that they behead people and blow themselves up in the name of Allah and we fight them to prevent that and to ultimately spread peace. Its plain and simple.

1) No. Not enough said. You can't stop terrorism. Did you not read my post before? It's a thought process. You can try and stop a terrorist organisation, but good luck with that.

2) Creating fear to stop opposition is oppression, yet you said oppression is wrong. Russia likes North Korea. They're liking the idea of a small country standing up to the US and how North Korea still following communist roots.

3) We're not saying that. We're saying you can't just wipe it out or whatever you've got going on in your head. It's not that easy to just fire a few rockets and be like "terrorism is gone!".

4) See point 2. And you so do. There are many things you say and then go back on yourself. We've all pointed them out to you.

5.1) that's the job of the police. The military of a created is to ensure the national safety of said country. And you'd honestly be up for throwing more soldiers lives away?

5.2) The US got involved into a political climate which was unstable and then completely destabilised the whole situation. Basically, the US created the wars itself.

5.3) The terrorists didn't kill that many children, the US Government did. Here's a lovely image for you


5.4) Trump is saying he wants to cut taxes yet increase military spending. You cannot do that. It's like saying I'm going to quit my job but spend twice as much on food. How?! Your income is reduced, yet your expenditure is growing.

5.5) There is actually more calls to reduce the spending on military. Cutting down military size as the world becomes a much more peaceful place. At this time in human life, there are less conflicts than ever. No need to increase military spending

5.6) Taxes are the main way Governments make money. Cutting them regardless of other incomes will still result in less being able to spent. Do you want more military or more and improved schools?

5.7) The US got involved in the Russia's conflict. Russia and Putin don't want to be friends with the US if they're going to get involved with what Russia wants.

[quote="What you said." (Didn't bother posting your whole post a 5th time. lol)[/quote]

While Obama is trying, I must admit that he is financially digging us into a bigger hole, in terms of our debt...

I remember 4 years ago, we were only in about $8 Trillion of debt. That's not much, except, now it's more like $20 Trillion? I haven't been keeping count, but yes, he's cost us more than our entire history, before he came into office, has costed us... :\

• We're your ally because we're forced to be your ally. A lot of people's opinions here is that we shouldn't be helping the US at all and need to go on our own path, as evidenced by my earlier point of Scotland rejecting the building of military bases there - a big reason why they want independence beyond the ethnic differences and political under-representation. People here like Americans, we just don't like what the US does with its foreign policy. We don't hate you because of your foreign policy like other European countries do, but we certainly don't like it and we want to be left out of global politics now to go be in isolation. A large part of this is because people here think we're superior to everyone else, but we still want to be left the Hell alone.
• Good luck bombing them and not killing innocents and causing a refugee crisis.
• Your point?
• That's what they need. Sure, they need to go fix their spending and get more revenue than just what they earn from tourism and abandon the Euro too for that to have an actual effect, but the money was needed.

Spreading peace by bombing little children and hospitals, then leaving with everything in rubble so the country will 'sort itself out'.

Makes sense.

I don't think we are so much ganging up but most don't agree with your statements. It is hard not to feel attacked but please try to understand that many just don't agree with you. And everyone please don't take Polymerized feelings personal. We are all free to feel the way we want to. And he is certainly not alone. I would also like to respond to what you have said here.
1) The point I was making was that even with thousands of lost Americans, and billions of dollars spent after 13 years we are no closer to a resolution than we were when we first went there. There is a saying, the definition of stupid is doing the same thing and expecting different results, or something like that. How much has all that pain and money protected and served us? There is the possibility that we just can't fix something by killing more people.
2) How does what we are doing in the middle east helping our allies? We might not agree but I don't think we have to send in armies all the time. It has been us doing that that has made us possibly the most hated country in the world.
3) The fact of innocent people we kill cannot be ignored by saying terrorists do it too. I don't find that a legitimate argument.
4) Have no idea what you are saying. You say we are wasting all that money with military spending and then say we need to spend more. Yes, very confusing.
5) We spend 596 billion. China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, UK, France, India, and Japan together spend 567 billion. Yes I think we spend a lot on the military.
6) I am a CPA and have a MBA, I understand taxes pretty well. Although it is not hard to understand if you want to increase spending and decrease revenues you will increase debt. And that is what Trump is advocating.
7) I agree I would like to get along with all countries but we are having problems with both of these and so it might not be possible to get along so great without giving them what they want.

1.) I can stop terrorism. Did you not read my post about how wrong you are? I literally said I can stop terrorism by electing a president that will work to wipe it out. Plain and simple. ENOUGH SAID.
2.)I never said oppression is wrong. You are putting words in my mouth which is why you have so many false assumptions about me. Put your personal bias aside and actually listen to me. That's what I am doing for you and everyone else here. I didn't even say terrorism is wrong, but I do want it stopped because it endangers our security. So I will say it now, Terrorism is wrong. We do need to oppress the terrorists. They couldn't grow initially because of the oppression of the dictators. So oppression works. We do not negotiate with terrorists.
3.) Your right. But you are arrogant in the fact that we don't just "fire missiles" at the enemy. We are more coordinated than that. I won't touch on this any further cause that comment was just idiotic.
4.) Stating that I contradict myself but not backing it up with anything proves nothing. Sorry, try again. I will say that you fail to understand what I am saying like I posted earlier. So go back and re-read my posts until you get what I am saying. If I did contradict myself, then post it with quotes. Even if I do contradict myself, that doesn't automatically make your opinions or the things you say automatically correct.
5.)Soldier's jobs are to protect and serve. Its their job to lay down their lives to serve our country. They are proud doing it. It isn't throwing their lives away to fight terrorism. They are serving and protecting the world with each jihad kill they get. Having a military and not using it is idiotic. Also, not all countries have a sort of 'police' like we do.
6.)First of all, the US did not 'create' the wars in the middle east. War was already happening. We went in because Saddam threatened our best friends in Israel and the threat was deemed real. So STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT IT! We did what was right by us and right by Israel. ISIS rose and the people of the country could not stop it. It is that simple.
7.)That image is idiotic. There are SO many things utterly wrong with it. First of all, its weighing the lives of Americans verses other's lives in the world. Which is stupid and wrong. 9/11 was utterly horrible. Innocents die every day in starving and war-torn nations by the way, even in the US actually. Second, it doesn't even have a point. It just says random numbers and then said that more innocents died for 'crimes they did not commit.' Ok. Do you know how many Americans die for 'crimes they do not commit'? Third, it is trying to lower the value of 9/11. 9/11 should be remembered forever. It should not be weighed against other random b.s. in the world. That is just horribly idiotic. I'm sorry.
8.)Again, cutting taxes is not the only way the government makes money. Do your research and come back with a legit argument.
9.)Less conflicts than ever huh? Lets list them out shall we? North Korea, China, Russia, ISIS, need I go on? There is a TON of conflict that needs a little muscle-flex from our military. We should not lower our guns until the world is truly safe, which if you believe it is now, you are just ignorant and living in your own little bubble of isolation.
10.) Taxes is the most direct way governments make money. Also, don't delude yourself into thinking spending less money is worse than spending more. Spending less and smarter is far better to spending more and not having a plan like Obama has done. That's why the debt has gone up SO MUCH over the 8 years he has been in office now.
11.)We got involved in Russia's "conflict" because they were attacking Ukraine and trying to take it over. Don't forget the reasons behind why we do what we do. There are no perfect solutions to everything. If we would respect and see eye-to-eye with Russia and work with them in negotiating, I bet an accord can be reached.

While Obama is trying, I must admit that he is financially digging us into a bigger hole, in terms of our debt...

I remember 4 years ago, we were only in about $8 Trillion of debt. That's not much, except, now it's more like $20 Trillion? I haven't been keeping count, but yes, he's cost us more than our entire history, before he came into office, has costed us... :\[/quote]

I understand what you are saying but keep in mind on day one he was faced with the largest recession since the great depression. In this situation you need to stimulate the economy to get out of it. And that takes money. By far the biggest reason we are in this hole was the Bush era tax cuts on the highest wage earners. That has dug us into this hole. I do blame Obama however as he was going to rescind those tax cuts that were initially created by Bush to be temporary but he never did.

Yeah, I remember that, what Bush did... Still, he cost us a lot of money, which isn't helping us any more with our debt issue.

1.) "Forced to be your ally." That's funny.
2.) Our missiles are more precise than just blowing up a whole block. Innocent casualties will happen, sad to say. Innocent casualties are a sad thing, but reality non-the-less.
3.) My point was that's how the world works and as long as it doesn't threaten our security or allies, it doesn't concern us and we should stay out of it.
4.)Indeed. They needed that relief money. That's why we sent it, but it didn't fix anything for Greece. It just postponed their economic fall. It gave them a cushion to fall on to try and recover. I'm just saying that money could have been spent to rebuild Greece stronger with a better system to handle government and whatnot instead of just throwing 8.4 billion at them and hope they can fix it themselves with it. It wasn't even our concern really, but it was a kind thing to do for them.
5.)That last statement about bombing little children and hospitals is just idiotic. All I will say is we aren't bombing children and hospitals, we are bombing terrorists. If the target happens to be child terrorists or they are stationed in a hospital, then I suppose we do blow them up. You saw the Chris Kyle movie right? Where he sniped a child terrorist? Yeah, I don't need to talk more about that do I? Lastly, it isn't our job to sort out their country. We are there to eliminate the threat to us. That's it.

This was enough to make me disregard the rest of the post, particularly the bit I've underlined.

And it's not 'random b.s', it's deaths caused by US involvement in the Middle East as a result of 9/11.

• Our government doesn't represent the people, it represents the filthy rich/the elderly. Once the elderly are gone, the US-UK special relationship will cease to exist and we won't operate as closely, or at all, with the US - if Jeremy Corbyn can become PM, this will happen as early as 2020. If he doesn't, it's coming anyway, and I can't wait for it.
• That was the point. The EU and US screwed them over more though by saying they could only pursue austerity, which caused riots in the country.
• You're bombing men and women going on with their lives, children, hospitals, and the occasional terrorist. It is in fact your statements that are flat out idiotic. Why the frigging Hell do you think the refugee crisis exists?
• And who's Chris Kyle? What does he have to do with this lol

Yeah, you are right. I just wanna say you are awesome cause you seem to be the most reasonable one here and trying to keep it civil. Thank you for that.
There are just a lot of people that don't agree with me and that's totally fine with me. I don't take anything personal and I hope you don't take my opinions personal either. I'm here to have a civilized debate because I LOVE politics and keeping up with the world.
1.) Yeah, it seems that way doesn't it, but that doesn't mean we should give up and let evil spread throughout the world. Who knows? The world could have been 1000x worse if we hadn't acted. You never know.
2.) I'm going to point to Saddam Hussein and Iraq for this one. They were threatening war to Israel and doing so with nuclear weapons. Prime example of us helping our allies.
3.)I'm not saying to ignore innocent casualties as a price to pay for defeating terrorism. I'm only saying that they are a reality because 'innocents' will live where they live and some will not flee no matter the threat. So, when war comes to their doorstep because terrorists live all around them, they can only blame themselves. Sure, they don't have anywhere to go more or less, but staying put seems to be a poor decision. Don't you think?
4.)I have no idea what you are saying either because all you said was I contradicted myself, but did not provide where you were confused. So I cannot help you there.
5.)I didn't say we don't spend a lot on the military. I'm saying the budget was cut pretty severely since Obama has been in office. I think that the military is needed now more than ever. Other countries don't spend as much as us on the military because ours is much more elite, much larger, and overall more widespread than any other nation. So just keep that in mind.
6.)You fail to see Trump's plan as an entirety. I will over simplify it so its easy to post here. Trump will cut taxes and thus allow Americans to have more money in their pockets. They will spend that money, which promotes business. If business is flourishing, people will start their own businesses. The cycle continues and the economy stimulates itself. More business also means more jobs. More people with money also will allow the government to make more money themselves. Overly simplified, it will fix our debt. Also, other countries have massive debt to us as well. They owe us money and Trump will collect on it. Simple. Cutting taxes may hurt the U.S. short term, but in the long run, its what needs to be done. I am no expert on taxes either, but I don't need whatever it is you have to understand how the economy works, at least at a basic level to know who to vote for and who has a better plan. Businessman and Entrepreneur vs Scandalous Woman with Political Experience. If I want to fix the economy and build the military, its pretty obvious who I am voting for.

1) I'm still going to say it, a president cannot just stop terrorism anyway that you're thinking. Terrorism will exist whether Trump, Hillary or even the Nazi party is elected.
2) Yes you did:

Wtf lol. Terrorism is bad.
3) You seem to think it's an easy thing to do. Just vote for Trump and he'll fire enough missiles to get rid of terrorism.

4) There are loads of times, I just don't have the effort to go through the last few pages to find all of them.

5) It's a waste of lives. Military size and spending needs to be reduced.

6) There was small conflicts, yes. But the US turned the small conflict into a full blown war between multiple

7) Is an American life now worth more than someone else's life? 9/11 happened and it was a horrible thing, but thinking the US has no sin from 9/11 is just ignorant. The US has killed many innocent people in this war against terror than lives lost in 9/11. For some reason, you seem to think that "random b.s in the world", isn't comparable to 9/11 but when those lives are just as innocent as an American one, it is. The image I linked shows the real damage of 9/11 and shows how closed Americans are if they think that they are the only ones to suffer from 9/11.

8) Cutting taxes doesn't make money. It reduces spending and saves money. I think you need to re-read that point because it makes no sense.

9) Go on all you like. There are less conflicts now than before.

10) Obama has been focusing spending internally. Like you want. The money cut on military was to reduce national debt and to further develop the things that help. Aka, schools, hospitals and other public services.

11) Russia won't respect the US because it got involved in something that Russia didn't want US involvement.