YA Call for EMC with less stalking, stealing and grieving

Ok, that sounds more like the first impression I had. I quoted that part of your post because it gave the opposite idea and it could lead to missunderstandings if nothing else was added. I still believe that putting some more effort in making clear what supportership means would prevent some of trouble. Not all of it, but some.

I got that, and I'm saying that your analogy / comparison does not hold.

You of course see that I'm supporter as well. And yes, it's not coincidence.

Lucky you... I hope for you that it stays that way. I wasn't that lucky

It does not have to be huge. I think difference big enough. About one half of griefings and PvP attacks that I've experienced was by using the live map. On that one occasion, Silken and me were like 32k blocks away, and we were stalked and griefed.

I don't disagree with ICC there. This topic is not new.

I'm not directly disagreeing with ICC here, so no ... I don't see how this would be lack of respect. (??)
My concerns are not of personal matter. It is about the community, about what kind of players should EMC attract.

Day? It's there since Mar. 11th and has 5 pages. Why close? Who needs it closed, who profits from it?
Why to discourage people from further discussion, new ideas and points of view?
Please don't close threads, it makes no sense.

PS: Vanilla is to have no live map. Not exposing players and not exposing structures.

I apologize in advance. I find it a little tedious grabbing each and every little quote and organizing it so I'm just numbering it how I reply. I'm just going to try and clarify and not argue.

1. The reason I see this analogy as accurate is because like you said, this has been suggested several times with "little change." You didn't get the response you wanted / in the time you wanted, so you made a new thread. You making the new thread is like asking the different parent, hoping for a new answer.

2. I do see you are a supporter, and as such you should know /map hide doesn't solve all problems.

3. I'm sorry to hear that. I guess I have been a little lucky.

4. If people want to follow you with the intent to kill you, I doubt not seeing them on the live-map is going to stop them. Not to mention people will be able to follow you easier without you noticing since they can be hidden as well.

5. If you don't disagree with what he said, why keep pushing this?

6. The lack of respect is that he gave his answer and not only did you not accept it, you had to let everyone know AFTER he closed the thread. When you couldn't reply, it would have been way more appropriate to send him a PM instead of starting this thread.

7. I meant "within a day" as in the thread was closed within a day of this one being made. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

As I said: because the old one was closed. Hoping for a new answer (from ICC)? That was not my point.

I'm hoping to
- rise awareness about this long-term issue among (new) active players and
- to add the point of view, that having the /map hide perk is (IMSO) a wrong way of attracting good players and supporters.

As Aikar says, changing how the live map works is all but trivial. I'm afraid it can happen that months and months will pass... And I think that switching /map hide for /map show as perk would be a good (temporary) solution - together with encouraging support of EMC in much better ways. I have an idea...

EDIT: not seeing me, of course. I wasn't hidden then...
Oh yes, it will. One dive into the ocean in the area I know (around my base) and you won't find me.

He didn't close the thread. And it's not a personal reply, the reply was to put emphasis on "long-term discussed issue", link to the original thread and to explain why I think the community shall continue to think about this issue and discuss.

?? This one was created few minutes after the original one was closed... Nvm., not important.

I closed the previous thread due to the tense argument that was brewing, after removing the offending posts I left the thread closed as everything has already been said...numerous times... from both sides...leaving it open any longer would have just been flogging a dead horse.

We have shared the basics of the plans for the future livemap tool, and will likely discuss it further down the line when it is being developed and implemented. Right now however there really isn't anything left to say regarding the matter and continually pushing it won't have any effect on current or near-future plans regarding this feature.

Essentially what we have now is more vanilla than /map hide. Is nice that your trying to get it, but its too late. They aren't going to do it. It's not worth arguing over. I'd be fine with removing players from the live map so we can't see other players, just the coordinates to places. Of course, that will probably never happen either.

Ok. One thing here has been bugging me a bit. Yes, EMC is a business. But it's not for Justin's personal gain, as has already been mentioned. But I need to explain exactly why EMC is a business.

Now, EMC needs donations to keep running. But they can't just ask for money. They have to, by law, offer a product or service. And so therefore they need to offer the absolute best products to keep people buying these products. And so they chose the current perks for being a supporter. Now Justin cheated a little bit with the business side of emc and has funnlled all the payments through kalland labs therefore making EMC not a proper business but just a trading name of another business.

Also the mention of kalland labs allows crazy1080 to debate with me about Justin's last name

There is a better way, and that's to remove LiveMap.

Then we'll see how many people really start complaining about it.

Here it is:

LiveMap is a free perk for everyone that doesn't need to exist, and could easily be removed, making you rely on your own mapping abilities, co-ordinates, or third party mods.

The ability to Hide on LiveMap is a perk for Supporters

*Shrugs*

Can't have your cake and eat it. You either cough up the nominal few dollars for basic Supporter package to support the free service you currently enjoy at the expense of others, or you don't, and deal with the consequences of that, which are, to be fair, incredibly minor.

Oh, as an aside, your initial post was incredibly confusing. A brief synopsis might be of help to fresh readers, and you do seem to have over-dramatised the issue somewhat. You make it sound like the plot for a murder mystery rather than a minor issue which many people have no problems with.

I normally don't use live map - for personal navigation I use Rei's Minimap.
I did use live map to plan "Quartz Express" routes. I've used it to find not yet generated chunks, and, about equally important, to see if there are other players' structures on the route.

On one server, there was a long debate if the railway will bring more players to the idea to look at the live map (of that region) and possibly detect bases and other structures. Fear from griefing and stealing was the main argument - with the effect, that the work on half finished track on that server was stopped.

I do know how to hide structures, and how much work that is.

I'd support not showing players on the live map, or even turning it off completely, but I guess that would be against the majority, which finds the live map useful.

It may seem so. You're right, a good written summary would be very helpful.

While being a minor issue for many players, it is a big itch for others - no matter if supporters or not!
I can hide from the live map (and I do hide). And I still have more direct and more indirect problems with non-supporters being forcibly exposed!

Yes, and we also remember, that without non-supporters, there are no supporters, there is no EMC and no live map to show any players.

Without quality players, the life on EMC gets dull and people go away. We need more players who support EMC and support fair play, and less players who want to buy advantage over they playmates. For the sake of a fun and fair game-play and positive development of the community.

Bottom line: do we really need that? Or is there a better way, a better solution for everyone?

I actually spoke to the chap who created the LiveMap plugin, and according to him it's relatively simple to set it so that LiveMap doesn't reveal chunks explored by either invidual players or a player group. I've pushed for this in the past as my Wild Village is stranded with no Nether access due to the obvious footprint it'd create in the Nether LiveMap which, when the sums were done, would point directly to my village.

Who knows what'll happen in regards to this.

I played for a good period as a non-Supporter and successfully held and ran a village on SMP2. I wasn't griefed or bothered, because I made sure I was far enough out that people simply didn't bother to travel there. The biggest reason people get issues with griefing is because they build far too close to a Spawn Outpost. Whether that be out of necessity or laziness, who knows.

Swings and roundabouts.
I don't favour those kind of points in a discussion as it's a bit 'chicken or egg' for me. We're at the point now where it's an irrelevant issue as it's now the Supporters who fund the bulk of EMC with a bit of Adsense topping it up (Or so I'd imagine).

If we're still focusing on LiveMap, you make it sound like we're buying Exp boosts or getting the ability to spawn ores.

I think as someone mentioned ages ago, maybe Alex? EMC is in a transition period from Town focus to having a strong hint of Wild focus about it. A lot of changes need to take place before that becomes a working reality, and perhaps LiveMap is one aspect of it which will need to be addressed in the longterm.

I for one hope it is addressed, as it affects me greatly and hampers my gameplay, even as a top-tier Supporter (Which I only got so I could fly on Utopia I might add). There are better ways to do it though, and giving away the one facet of Iron Supporter which makes it worthwhile is the wrong way. Remember, it's been said many times before that /hide is part of the Iron Supporter level to make it worthwhile getting.

You are only going to need /hide if you intend to do some serious stuff on the Wild in EMC, which means in a way, you should really be supporting the servers for the obvious involvement & immersion it's giving you. People forget that yeah, they paid money for Minecraft, but EMC and the hundreds of other servers out there, still have running costs that need to be taken into account.

For the pleasure of getting /hide and supporting a great community, $5 is a very reasonable sum. If someone brings out the argument of: "I can't afford $5 a month" then I'd say stop paying for internet access and start financing better.

They're not advantages though, they're... Experiences? Even that's not the right word. But having /map hide isn't even giving you an advantage, it's giving you some reassurance.

Dude... not cool... you don't just get around a closed thread by replying to something an a whole new thread, and start the entire thing back up again...

I support because I support the Empire, Not because of the features though they are a nice reward. Yes I agree that /map hide and show should be able for non-supporters because they get followed when they go out in the wild, someone most likely a griefer is following them. This however would allow both griefer and player to hide so that means griefers can grief that much more. Think about, SMP 1 wild is horrible, I hate it because someone had the nerve to grief right outside spawn. But with giving them this, they could find peoples bases and grief them without anyone knowing, yes they would still be caught but it would take longer.

Because of what I said I think this is a bad idea.

Most of the complaints I've had have stemmed from 1) Non supporter friends being seen on the map, not me. 2) People who already know something blabbing to the wrong person. Yes, we put in rails and now everyone who reads this thread will know it. I can't thank you for the advertisement although I doubt if it's enough information to hurt anything.

Probably the latter is the worst. The Wild and Nether are big places. Even if you can see something on the map that looks interesting, or know of an easy way to get to it, doesn't mean someone will go there unless they have enough motive. Rupees are a big motive and when someone talks about a farm at a base or when an obvious farm can be seen on Live Map it tends to attract the wrong type of people.

We don't Lock everything. Just valuables. I tell the people I play with that there's nothing there that can't be found or built in a thousand other places. I have come to think that the biggest problem we have with griefing and stealing is the fear of griefing and stealing. Someone may steal a seed and I'll get over it. It's the principle of the thing though. Griefing takes time and I've never seen any of what I'd consider true griefing. BUT just being in a place at night is enough to make a few creeper holes, and someone who came to see if he can profit from the location isn't likely to repair any damage he caused even if it's not intentional.

What we can't replace is the experience we have there. This group of people will never come together in this way again. If one person gets frustrated and leaves it's something that no amount of mining can replace. So we worry. Sometimes to excess.

We are over 30 people now. Not all are active all the time of course. Some are there nearly everyday and some have come out once, played for a week and never returned. Some are just farm squatters, not contributing anything but also not harming anything. I feel it's my job to protect them since I don't want their fun to be ruined. So I encourage chest Locking and ask that they not talk about it to anyone without talking to me first. I also encourage everyone to get involved in a project. When someone invests themselves in an area they feel protective of it.

But still we get people all the time who have heard about it or seen it on Live Map. It leaves us trying to understand a person's intentions each time someone shows up unexpectedly and it causes a lot of anxiety. Hopefully they are there to play with their friends or for company, or just to satisfy their curiosity. Are they there to steal? Do they want to squat at a farm? Some are encouraged to stay and partipate and others discouraged. Some are reported. The deserving get banned.

It's been a lot of work for me at times and the group probably would have fallen apart if someone hadn't taken it on. I don't even expect Wild Protections to solve all the problems I've seen. It is what it is and I'll take whatever tools are given to me and use them.

I see I've become some sort of poster child for this issue and I don't really like it. I've got a few issues I'd like to see addressed, but I don't think staging protests and making a lot of noise will make any of the Staff listen better or make them my ally, so I just poke occassionally. They pay attention to these forums even if they aren't posting all the time.

Live Map is a two edged sword. Just as someone with ill intent can see people in the Wild, so can we also see them. It's a tool with many uses. Whether it is used for good or bad isn't the fault of the tool. I'm happy to have it even if it stays the way it is.

I do.
I purchased the game on my old Steam account days before it went F2P. I just decided to migrate over to my new account to have a fresh start... Unfortunately my 'pr0skillz!!!111!!!" matched that of the F2P newbs and I stopped playing the game up until the other day.

Iron supporter doesn't cost that much. For my dad, that's about 1 hour of working hours. He is underpaid and since he doesn't/can't get a degree, whatever, he can't change jobs. My mum on the other hand has a degree etc., and is a childminder. She is overpaid, which is why my supporter is on her bank account.
(This might not be the case in a few months when I have my own job )

Also, as Crazy said, EMC is a business. This is how businesses make money.

/map hide DOES NOT, and WILL NOT, make you immune to griefing. It just lowers your chances by about 20%.

That's good news.

I thought so when starting to build around 32k out. But soon the stalkers (3 of them, 2 of them in pair!) were there, although there was nothing visible on the live map. They traveled over one hour just to see what Silken and me are doing so far out. One of them griefed in front of my eyes...
So, being far out and visible on the live map was the very reason to be stalked!
(Besides having shops in the town...)

It is chickens and eggs, I'd just like to see smarter chicks and better eggs
Imagine EMC with only few non-supporters. How would that be?

Well, not only. Think about customers using facilities in the wild like "Quartz Express" and "Wastelands Experience", think about workers who are hired to dig and/or build in the wild etc.

True. I'd like it far more if the /hide would be /show or wouldn't be needed at all.
Or if non-supporters could buy it for rupees.

@all: remember: non-supporters get rupees mainly by working for supporters!
Why not make them get something in return?

Doesn't matter where you go or where you are, some one is always unhappy with something.

They set things up like this for a reason, people that do chooses to support for the reason of getting map hide are doing so because they have felt the need to protect their time and effort that they have invested on this community. For that reason alone you dont find many people supporting doing any form of grieving "beside the select few".

Map hide is another form of protection EMC provides to the players that support. If this feature were to be made public for use by all then i feel you would see the number rise in grieving because it simple enough to scan live map and find some form of human activity and go check it out

So on that note, if some on is determined to grief they'll find a way regardless of any feature implemented.

To remove offending posts and warn people is very welcome to all who really want to discuss.

You can't know that there won't be a new valuable idea tomorrow.

Some new points did emerge here (at least new for me, I'm following this discussions since around 6 months):
- showing non-supporters on the live map has negative effect on supporters
- the live map has functionality to show only explored chunks (by player or group)

Partially new for me: it seems that majority accepts that if it is a business, it does not matter how you treat people and what you do to them - as long as they are paying, as long as you can make earnings / profit.

Do you remember the time when LCD manufacturers produced almost only glare, reflecting displays, and it was hard to find a notebook with coated, non-reflecting LCD?
In Europe (most states) it is actually forbidden to use shiny, reflecting equipment at workplace. Reflections are bothersome and tiring.
I've protested about that with several distributors and producers. Some people were like "It's the customers fault! Why are they buying? If they would not be buying shiny things, the companies would not produce them."

I don't think so. If you have a business, you still ought to respect people and respect the society, it is still a sin to harm them, even if it would be legal and you would make profit.
It matters how you treat people.

I read this in your voice ever since I started to watch every episode of OBAM gaming.

I'm Going to File a copyrights claim! (joking)
As for the topic of this thread i believe that other members of our community have explained this better than i could've.