YA Call for EMC with less stalking, stealing and grieving

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by M4ster_M1ner, Apr 13, 2013.

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  1. Yes - not only in this thread, but also in several threads in the past year(s).
    But, very little changed, and /map hide is still not available to all players.
    I think the work on convincing and lobbying needs to continue until we all together can overcome this adversity.

    Among all other arguments, there is this one that IMO really sticks out far above the others (and I really do not understand how people can be so ignorant and asocial and go like "I pay for it"... that makes me really :(:(:():

    Why would you forcibly expose someone to stalking, stealing and grieving?
    Why would you (indirectly) sell protection from stalking, stealing and grieving?

    EMC is worth supporting.
    But I have a strong opinion that this /map hide perk
    is a very wrong way of motivating people to support.
    In my book, this is, or is very near to protection racket.

    Does EMC really need this?
    Is EMC that unlikable that it needs something like protection racket?
    Is this really the way to get supporters?
    Is the grief of so many players worth it?

    All of you that are supporters for one or the other reason -
    do you really need your non-supporter playmates forcibly shown on the live map?
    Do you really need them to be potential target of stalking, stealing and griefing?

    In my opinion, this casts a dark shadow over EMC and breaks its own rules and culture.


    There are good ways of asking for donations and advertising supporting!

    All EMC members!
    Unite in support of fair play!
    Raise your voice against stalking, stealing and grieving -
    For the sake of EMC and this community!
  2. There not forcing them to buy supporter to map hide but there taking a risk by not being a supporter and being visible
    jrm531, jkjkjk182 and mba2012 like this.
  3. No. You can not hide unless supporting. You are forced to support if you don't want to be shown and traceable on the live map.
    And this is just plain wrong. Do we need that? I mean really.
  4. I like the idea that /map hide can be earned by players that want to support EMC without paying actual real money however I'm not going to comment (a lot) on that, quite frankly because it was discussed on the other thread.

    I will address your other concerns however.
    This. /map hide is a perk that allows for safer usage of the wild. It doesn't make griefing, stalking and stealing impossible for supporters - it makes it less likely - but the players that pay for it can still be victims.

    How much does /map hide really help?/Why this isn't a massive problem
    Griefing isn't a problem on EMC and neither is stalking - not sure about theft but that's easily prevented... Locked chests. Then again, I tend not to use /wild compared to my time spent in town, so I admit I'm not talking about practical knowledge but more what I've read. Due to the fact that griefing is a main factor when you list the cons of a MP game people think that it's a massive deal...

    WHY /map hide isn't a perk for everyone
    I've explained this in many, many threads before but here goes again:

    When Empire Minecraft was founded (and to this day really, updates are still being worked on to make it proper) we were extremely town based, due to one main reason and that was that Justin and Jeremy were both in favour of towny. In fact, we would continue to be if Aikar hadn't stumbled across this server (thank god for that!).

    The point is that our perks, our early culture and our policies (not so much our rules, they're pretty generic and easy to understand) were/are all based around town, not the wild. Hence "help he's at my base and I want him to leave" is such a complicated, messy situation and /map hide isn't accessible to everyone.

    Aikar still hasn't made the transition w/ updates to a proper multi-world server so we can still expect them. More about how he'll be helping out wild-dwellers in the last explanation.

    It's a supporter perk for a reason, so people have something to support for.

    "EMC is forcing people to support by not making /map commands accessible by everyone"
    Definitely not true;
    • "/map hide is a privilege, not a right"
    • Like I said, it doesn't mean you're completely safe, you're just a bit safer with it
    As Aikar once said, if this were true you could buy staff for $500, you could ban people for $20, ect. Obviously what you're saying isn't that extreme but it's definitely not true and would basically mean the same thing, just at a different level.

    What EMC is and will be doing:
    Players aren't ignored, griefing, stalking and stealing is still prevented thanks to certain plugins and ideas.
    1. Adjusting the live map to only show people that are in areas you've already explored or in a certain range of your location
    2. Land protection in the wild
    3. Locking chests
    4. Logs on Square
    5. EMC loyalty rewards for people that support EMC (not financially) to protect them, hopefully with a /map or something similar ability.
    6. STAFF. We have staff, that means they care and want to prevent it!
    jrm531, cddm95ace, jkjkjk182 and 8 others like this.
  5. I think it would have been better to message ICC this instead of make a thread disagreeing with him and using his quote as the starting point.

    There are plenty of ways to prevent yourself from being griefed, so I really don't see the point of this thread. I've played as both a non-supporter and supporter and never once been griefed or stolen from. I'm nearly 500 days old and spend 95% of my time in the wild and 90% of that is on smps 1-9 and not Utopia.

    For starters, EMC has the tutorial and the fact that you have to sign up to get on the site. This already keeps many griefers away. They just want quick easy targets.
    Like I just said, griefers prefer easy targets. Distance is your friend. "Oh but it's such a hassle to bring stuff to and from the wild..." It may be a hassle, but if you want a safe place then this is your best bet. If you don't want to travel far, then tough nuggets. Prevention is the best way to stay safe, so make the effort to protect your stuff.

    EMC also provides the use of locked chests. Keep your stuff safe. If you are worried about it being stolen, then keep it locked up. This won't protect everything, but if you want to play on a multi-player server then there's going to be some risk. EMC is awesome because with some effort, anyone can become wealthy without being a supporter. A locked chest isn't expensive.

    Wastelands is coming out, so you can travel to and from town very quickly to keep stuff safe. They are already making it easier for you.

    Supporters pay for this because it's more convenient. Many supporters (myself included) have purchased supportership just for /map hide.

    I completely understand peoples frustration when people say "It's $5. Get over it" because there are plenty of reasons someone can't pay.

    Basically, being able to /map hide is a privilege, not a right. It's easy to get far out in the wild. Make a nether path. Safe and quick. Bam. I have a wild base over 90,000 out and it takes me MAYBE 20 minutes to walk to and from, without the use of food / potions. I've had a wild base 10,000 out and in the ocean. I've had a wild base 15,000 out and on a continent. Not once has anyone unwelcome so much as come and griefed us. I set up two of these without a colored name and had no issues.

    Really, this isn't even a problem with money. It's people being lazy. You can egg animals for more convenient travel. You have protected storage on your res. You have protected storage with the use of a lock. You have wastelands coming out. It's currently on easy mode. There are very few reasons you would be griefed.

    People get griefed sometimes, even if they do as much as they can to prevent it. Having /map hide won't make a huge difference if you're smart about your location.

    Our staff team does their job very well also. They take care of griefers very quickly. EMC provides SO FREAKING MUCH at no cost.

    Again, /map hide is a privilege, not a right.

    Edit: I also forgot to mention that plenty of people at my outposts didn't have /map hide. It wasn't just a group of supporters.
  6. People want to hide on the map, that's why it's a service. If more people support this, that's more incentive to not make /map hide free.

    EMC is a business. That's how businesses work.


    The way it is, you buy iron supporter for one of two reasons: To hide on the live map or to support EMC, though largely the former. If you give /map hide to everyone, you deprive iron supporters of their primary benefit; I'm sure at least someone remembers the fallout that happened after TF2 was made F2P. How would you feel if you purchased something, only for it to be given away for free later?

    Justin and Jeremy aren't stupid, they obviously thought the supporter bonuses through before they added them. As you have no access to any of the information used to make these decisions, you have no right to assume that what you're thinking is even remotely correct. Doing so is simply an insult to the people who have spent over a year working to better this community. Clearly /map hide is a supporter perk for a reason, and this reason is not something you are entitled to, though that doesn't mean IcecreamCow would't give you it anyway.

    You also shouldn't pretend that you don't have a voice on EMC, because that's just you clearly looking for ways to seem unheard. If you sent a PM to IcecreamCow concerning this, he would promptly reply to it. Whether or not you're okay with this answer is not his decision, so don't assume that you not liking his answer means you do not have a voice.


    Too bad whenever I try to be serious, there's some kind of glaring hole in my reasoning.. like forgetting to multiply something and sounding like an idiot. I'm not the preferred authority on these things for a reason.

    (And by the time I post this, all of what I'm saying will be redundant.)
  7. You're going around its point.
    Answering the questions in my post shows the point.
    Do we really need non-members forcibly exposed on the live map. Why?
    Isn't there a better way? Really?

    Just ask to see the list of players banned for stealing and grieving. That should be enough to stop anyone from (trying to) ignore the problem.

    Unfortunately not. People have bases and structures 20k, 30k, 40k away and more. And still get stalked, stolen from, grieved, attacked. Been there, made that experience. Several times! Ask Silken_Thread, ask Pab10S, ask people from outposts ...

    What is more convenient? :confused:

    Please read OP again.
    Do you need non-supporters to be forcibly exposed on the live map, to be potential target of stalking and grieving, to be at risk? Why? Really?
    Please read and answer the questions directly and sincerely if you really support forcibly exposing anyone on the live map.

    Being protected from stalking, stealing, grieving, being attacked etc. is a basic human right.
    Selling such protection is known as "protection racket."
    Do we need that? Really?
  8. This. Yes I haven't yet paid for supporter myself, two people kindly gifted supporter to me and I felt guilty honestly. If it weren't for life kicking my husband and I right now I'd be a supporter. I don't really have a right to complain or anything when there are people like Sonicol1 ,and I think Copherfield was another, whose home countries are not listed in Paypal's list. Their only choice is to either stick with Free Member or hope/ask someone pays for them.

    Also as for some of the outpost griefings, many outposts have rails that lead to nether/wild spawns and people do happen upon them and they lead them straight to the town. I've been in a couple that don't have these and had to make a trek with Speed potions and haven't had near as may issues.
    Crazy1800 likes this.
  9. I just checked, because you asked. :)

    19 bans for stealing (In 3 days)
    4 bans for griefing. (In 3 days)

    Lock your chests, and that's 4 "grief" bans every 3 days.
    I think EMC giving free access to protection from 83% of grief-related incidences is more than fair.
    PenguinDJ and AlexChance like this.
  10. You're right ... business. What kind of business?
    Do we (EMC) really need that?

    Well ... that's just too :(
    I hope you're wrong.


    I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
    I would have posted in the original thread, but it was locked a minute before I hit "Post Reply." If you mean that... (?)
  11. That's implying that your normal "speaking" voice isn't being heard. It is.

    To the rest of your post, that first "segment" was just business statement. It wasn't included in the rest because EMC isn't a "if you want it, it costs money" kind of business. Like I said earlier, we protect you from 83% of griefing already.

    And I may not be completely correct with the reasoning behind buying Iron Supporter, I personally got it for the reserved spot, as that was its original purpose. These days, the greatest feature is /map hide.
  12. /map hide is ANOTHER way to prevent being griefed, and like every other way, it's not 100% perfect. Keep your coordinates private, don't place anything you are extremely worried about out in the open, lock your items, and just don't talk about your camp. People aren't going to look for it if you don't make a big deal about it.

    Nobody is trying to ignore this problem. You received your answer. You weren't satisfied so you brought it up again. It's like when a parent says you can't do something, so you go to the other parent hoping for a different response. The team has put a lot of thought into this idea. You aren't the first person to make this suggestion.

    Odd how Pab10S is a supporter and is still griefed then. This is more of a counter-arguement. He has /map hide and has been griefed. You seem to think /map hide will instantly solve all problems. Not the case. Not to mention he has nether rails. Those make it easier for both you and griefers.

    Silken is also a supporter. Both the people you given as an example have /map hide.

    /Map hide. It's convenient, not a necessity.

    I read the OP several times before posting. I know what you've said.

    /map hide for everyone works both ways. Griefers and thieves can sneak in, take stuff, and get away with it. I've been with my brother and many times, someone has claimed they were griefed, checked the live map, and the guy was still nearby. He would have been found either way, but it made it a lot easier for the staff by narrowing down the list of potential griefers.

    This is a game. "Basic human right" doesn't mean squat on the internet. You see plenty of people post stuff that they would NEVER say in real life. Nothing on the internet is sacred. Grocery stores sell food. I would think food would be a basic human right. Oh, and we have to pay for housing. And warmth.

    Non-supporters don't NEED /map hide. It's not necessary. It's something we pay for. We help the server. Is it unfair? No. Feel free to think it is, because whenever money is involved people aren't happy.
  13. I really don't care about map hiding, but I have been telling people that supporting was worth not for the perks, but to support EMC. If it is assumed that it's for the perks, then I won't ever make that statement.

    EMC is a business? Ok, that is not bad, everyone's got to make a living, but then I was very mistaken after all I had read on the topic and the general impression that was being transmitted. It is good to have it clarified like this.
    M4nic_M1ner likes this.
  14. It is a call to all members - supporters and non-supporters - to support EMC and ask for /map hide for everyone.
    I've opened a new thread only because the original one was locked. :(

    Please check the first 3 sentences of the OP.
    And, I'm much more than 20 years from kindergarten. Thank you.

    What I mean is just ask them about the live map, about the stalking and griefing problems...

    Oh. But the grief of players is very, very real. Really. IRL.

    Really? How about human dignity?

    It's really not about money. Pab10S, Silken, me, ... if we go out and have a beer in a good pub it's around $5. C'mon.

    It's really about what you think of people and how you treat people.
  15. The intent for supporting goes towards keeping the servers running and paying whoever hosts the server. They just added the perks. In many threads where people have raged at the mods because they "didn't do anything" "lack of mods" blahblah, the lies and stuff banned players try to spread etc. it has been stated that the Mods and Admins don't get the money that comes from supporting. They spend their free time basically VOLUNTEERING to help keep things in order.

    The problem then becomes the people who buy gold or diamond, keep it a month just to get the extra reses and then stop donating. They're somewhat "abusing" the purpose of the supportership. It's a completely different story if they have a month where they can't pay and have to cancel for that month or so.
    PenguinDJ, mba2012 and Lasluin like this.
  16. EMC is a business, yes. While the goal is to generate income, Justin doesn't use any of it for himself, it is all invested in the server.

    As I said, there are plenty of people on EMC who couldn't care less if the server survived or not. I did not say that you weren't a supporter to support, I was simply saying that most people don't view it this way. Whether or not that's a correct viewpoint is up to your discretion.
    PenguinDJ and mba2012 like this.
  17. That.

    Think about
    a) supporting the server and the community
    b) buying advantage over your playmates.

    What kind of community do we want to be?
    What goes better with the EMC rules and culture?
    Do we really need non-supporters forcibly exposed on the live map?
    What kind of players do we want to attract?
    How do we want to treat that people?

    That's the point of this thread!
  18. Very little has changed because it's a "problem" the staff doesn't see needs fixing. And even though they've said that, they have also said they are going to make changes. You want everyone to get /map hide and want everyone to help you support that. Because I don't support it doesn't mean I haven't read the post like you keep implying.

    What I said was called an analogy. A comparison. I didn't say you were a kid asking the question. I said you are acting like them. There is a large difference.

    Then that must have been a coincidence that you chose two supporters :p

    I've been the "founder" of several outposts, and over half the people at them have been on the live map. I've been 10,000 from the spawn. I haven't been griefed once.

    I'm not saying grief of players doesn't exist. It does, and giving everyone /map hide isn't going to make a huge difference.

    1. I don't see where you are getting at with this. Plenty of people are without dignity. Nothing on the internet is sacred. If it were, there would never be "flame wars" over religion. We've had plenty on EMC, and these have all been small-scale.

    2. $5 for /map hide? No, that isn't much, but considering the amount of people who get it for this reason, it really adds up.

    3. I find this one slightly ironic. ICC gave everyone answers on previous threads. You don't seem to care about what he thinks and the way you are addressing him in this isn't treating him well. Quoting him and making that the first part of the post? That's just disrespectful. "Hey everyone, just so you know, I completely disagree with him on this point so I'm going to broadcast it to the world instead of taking up my concerns with him directly"

    I'll say this one last time. /map hide isn't necessary. If it were, everyone would have it. It's that simple./map hide for everyone won't change much. At all. I don't see why you keep pushing this.

    "Oh a similar thread was closed within a day? Well since I didn't get to reply I'll just make a new thread."

    I don't see you changing your mind about this subject, so I'm not going to continue this pointless debate.
    PenguinDJ and PandasEatRamen like this.
  19. Everything that's being stated here was already stated in the previous thread so I have nothing more to add that's going to make manic anymore happy.

    However, I would like to request someone make a meme or drawing of some sort if you have that kind of skill that shows off EMC (perhaps Justin and I's avatars) as a "mafia" holding emc hostage as a "racket" I found that comment to be rather funny and think it would work out as a comic.

  20. A nice caring and fun community that isn't ran into the ground by 12 year old children who can't run a server for beans.

    People following the rules and actually utilizing the tools given to them.

    People aren't forced to be exposed. It's actually vanilla not to have map hide. The map is just a nice tool incase you get lost. /map hide is just a nice perk you get for supporting, which keeps the server running.

    Players who follow the rules, enjoy building, mining, becoming a community and making friends. That's why the bad guys are weeded out by staff.

    We want to treat them just like everyone else. They have the option to pay just like everyone else. They have the option to follow the rules and live with everyone else.
    oremia, penfoldex, jacob5089 and 4 others like this.
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