I think it is natural that the auction host / original poster sets the terms, and the bidders have to agree to the terms in order to bid - on both type of auctions. IMO, the auctions on EMC are quite over-regulated. There are many rules and exceptions that actually more go around than straight to the point of the auctions rules - to keep the "Community Auctions" forum reserved only for quality auctions. I guess only few people know why on EMC there are auction rules at all - besides the most basic and natural ones. I'd like to see improvements to auction rules that would replace too detailed, specific rules with more general and more to the point rules - especially regarding quantity of items that can be auctioned. For example, current rules allow auction of one DC of dirt (probably worth 50-100r) but do not allow auction of one or few stacks of emerald ore (probably worth over 15k each). I think this is obviously not contributing to the overall goal of auction rules - IMO, it works even contrary to the goal of making "Community Auctions" a forum for quality auctions.
I definitely agree M4nic_M1ner on the quantity issue. I'm sure there had to have been some reason to put some kind of quantity limits on items but DC of some things are either unneeded overages (e.g. DC of Dispensers... I'd bid on several stacks for a project) or out of price bid ranges (e.g. DC of Diamonds or Emeralds... I'd definitely bid on several stacks of them but a DC is out of the majority of peoples price range)
It did have a reason in the sense of cause, but not really a good reason in the sense of reasonable. Around two years ago, it took me quite some time and effort to find out the reason / the cause for those quantity restrictions. I wonder if anyone reading this forum and/or using "Community Auctions" knows / understands why, understands the background - and why we don't have better rules. (Except perhaps very few veterans that were involved at that time, more than 3 years ago (?)) Anyone? What perplexes me is that so many people use "Community Auctions", and they don't ask why: why would auctioning of 10 stacks of diamond ore or 5 stacks of emerald ore be harmful to EMC community / EMC marketplace and deserves to be banned?
I was wondering why the hard limit for most products was a full DC in most cases. That did not make sense to me at all. I have not looked into the reason as of yet but any light you could shed on this would be helpful.
I do not understand what you mean when you say that the rules are not to the point. We lay out a very specific guideline that explains very basically what is required for an auction to transpire. Most, if not all, players understand the rules so obviously they are doing their job. While I understand your point of view with regards to the DC quantity required with the community auctions, there are a few simple reasons why the system is in place the way it is now. 1) Simplicity to prevent confusion. Listing out X amount of this and Y amount of that being allowed with regards to EVERY minecraft block would cause more trouble than keeping a general 'Everything in this Category' system. A great example is the main reason why Special Event items were added to the auction rules. So many of them already had some exceptions created. So instead, the exceptions were removed and the overall category was added to the Auctionable Items list. That way, when explaining to someone what is and isn't allowed, it is easier and less likely to cause confusion. 2) Prevent overuse of auctions in place of normal economic exchange. The auctions forums are not in place to replace player shops or become the go-to place for purchasing items in small quantities like a stack or so. Therefore, it was decided to remain as a location for Specialty Items in limited quantity OR more general items in bulk. While the values assigned might be different as your example with emerald ore shows, it is expected that the emerald ore should be sold via a shop sign at that low of a quantity without an absurd amount of hassle. Overall please remember that while you may understand the system and could utilize a more advanced one, you are not the only player on EMC and the rules created are in place to facilitate use for all players.
Wow, you're all so good at defending your viewpoint! You are indeed making very good sense, and I think I shouldn't choose for one side, but rather just go with the rules the staff sets up for us and see what happens
EMC had to put in a fair amount of work/code (I assume) to enable the current mechanism, without which there would be no economy on EMC. So keep in mind this is not an indictment of the current mechanism, just observations vs what typical MMOs offer. Relative to other MMOs people may be used to, and from what I've seen in town chat as well as personal experience, the current mechanism for small quantity exchanges requires significantly more work on the part of the buyers and sellers, when looking to buy certain items, especially rarer items (e.g. Ender Chests). This is really a function of how MC is structured and not a fault of EMCs. With that said, I've played other MMO's. Most have an integrated user interface for finding what's available for purchase, often doubling as an auction feature. It's in game. Some even go so far as to expose an API by which people can query current pricing, pricing trends...etc. So I suspect people are wanting small quantity auctions to help fill that void...etc. The reason this model is desired in videogames is there comes a point where simulating aspects of reality interferes with the "fun factor" for a great many players. Making purchases of desired items is one such area, as evidenced in almost every video game I've played since Bard's Tale on the Commodore 64. In fact when looking at real life purchases many people opt for at least an online inspection of what's available and where, before even venturing out the door... However, EMCs model is constrained by the core of Minecraft, which doesn't seem to easily allow for this more streamlined mechanism of economic exchange. By way of personal example: I had to ask around to find out there were three potential vendors on SMP6, none of whom had Ender Chests in stock, if they directly sold them at all. Instead I had to visit three locations to determine the specific item of interest was not available. Then I got to visit two locations, make purchases two purchases, and get gifted the final component from a friend who refused payment. (I'll get her back tho!) Were I say, on "crusty old MMO XYZ" I would have wandered to the nearest auction house and typed in "Ender Chest" into their integrated search engine and found all vendors, if there were any, prices and quantities available. If not, I'd have then searched on each component to see if they were available in the quantities I wanted. To be honest, I wasn't really bothered by this. After all, Minecraft simulates a lot of nitty gritty details that most games don't. However, I also suspect I'm in the minority here... DISCLAIMER: The above statements were just observations and illustrations of the reality we live in when playing Minecraft as an MMO (a purpose for which it was not originally designed). They are neither approval, nor disapproval of how EMC is handling this situation.
Don't be afraid to think about the rules, the background, the community, the changes it goes through. If something appears unnatural or strange - don't miss to ask. Ask why, always ask why. Everything has a cause, a reason - and if something appears strange or not reasonable it is very probably worth the time to find out why. Question the rules and decisions, contribute to make them better. When you see a rule that appears strange, and you don't see an explanation, a sound reasoning behind it - don't miss to ask. Never give in. Never give in! Never, never, never, never - in nothing great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense. (Winston Churchill to a school assembly) Discussing and contributing to the life of the community makes the community. When people discuss the community life and contribute - and see others doing it, then they know there is something to discuss, there is something of value. It is only constrained if the community wants and/or accepts those constrains. This is very well possible on EMC and several members are working to provide this service - see http://www.azoundria.com/emc/market/ It would also be possible in-game: like /sell <item> <min price> <desired quantity> Some time ago, Aikar suggested to implement such search engine on EMC - and perhaps not only that, but also to allow for "on-line shopping" where you wouldn't need to go to the shop in order to buy or sell. This idea was met with quite an amount of negative criticism, arguing that it would ruin the "EMC shopping experience (TM)", so it is put on hold for the time. It is true that many (new) players make shops not really to sell / exchange goods, but to "play shop". It is true that "on-line" buying / selling would reduce the number of visitors to player shops, but it would not ruin that "come and check out my (small) shop" play. It is, IMO, not true that auctions, even if completely unrestricted, would replace even a small part of exchange through player shops, and neither a search engine would ruin the "EMC shop experience" in any way.
TL/DR: - The general idea and the overall setup of the "Community Auctions" is good. - The rules can be improved and made more general, more to the point and more flexible at the same time without changing the good part, without negative effects. - Quantity restrictions can be replaced by a simpler and better rule. Also item restrictions. - I do not wish for a change in the overall spirit of "Community Auctions", just an improvement. The rules are restricting quantity in quite a coarse way, but a restriction of the quantity is not really the goal. The restriction of the quantity is the "lesser evil" taken in order to achieve a goal. I think we can achieve that goals more directly, without this "lesser evil" and make "Community Auctions" even better. Too specific. Having very specific rules is generally not desirable, as they are expected to have negative side effects - as the current quantity rules have. Example: A wood farmer is able to auction his day's work, a DC of logs. A miner isn't. This is a discrimination that is not desirable - a negative side effect of the rules. A chicken farmer could produce a DC of chicken spawn eggs and want to auction it. But who needs a whole DC? Even a big shop does not need that many. It would be more reasonable for him to put 10 stacks for auction every now and then. I'm all for simpler rules. Restriction to selling of a multiple of 3456 items at once isn't really making things simpler nor it was originally meant to make auctions simpler (!). Neither is 54 stacks, nor 27 stacks a count that people usually calculate with. For most items, people remember either the price per item (as with diamonds or emeralds) or the price per stack (as with sand, glass or logs), so restriction to DCs isn't helping there. Having to check which items are auctionable and which not isn't making the life simpler either. Generally it would be preferable that any items can be auctioned and in any quantity. But how to achieve flexibility and at the same time prevent a flood of "random", "junk" or "here is a DC of what I don't need" auctions? The goals? - Obviously to provide a moderated forum for auctions as a service to the community - Keep high quality, keep it as useful as possible - Prevent flood of "unreasonable" or "junk" auctions. This was the original motive for restrictions. - Keep it simple and not confusing, also considering younger and less experienced members - who are possibly auctioning something for the first time in their life. - Prevent people from auctioning small amounts of items just to learn how auctions work. Is that really a desirable goal? Auctions are normal economic exchange. Generally, the best you can do to EMC economy is Laissez-faire. Let them do it! Let people decide for themselves what economic activity suites them. Forced blessings are not a good idea. If you try to tweak it, to pull it in one or the other direction, the chances are that you will disturb it and do more harm than good. Yes, some people would try to auction few diamonds or a stack of logs - not because it is reasonable from the economic point of view, but because they would like to learn how auctions work. If really desired (?), this can be prevented without negatively affecting the majority of "Community Auction" users. It is interesting that in the reasons you did not mention the original cause / reason for introduction of restrictions: flood of "junk" and "random stuff" auctions. Yes, there would be some "junk" and "random stuff" and joke auctions, but it is easy to prevent this without restricting quantity to a multiple of 3456 items. There is no need for a rule here, because the very nature of auctions makes it impossible to happen. Auction simply needs far too much time and effort to come into consideration as a replacement for using player shops. This whole discussion about the preserving of "EMC shopping experience" came much later than auction restrictions. Auction quantity rules predate it by more than a year. It is in the best interest of the community to care about its new / youngest / weakest members. As far as possible it should go without restricting their learning and development, without harming the majority, without unnecessary restrictions for the overall development of the community. Did I get the goals good enough? If so, I'd propose a concrete amendments to the auction rules in one of the next postings.
The purpose of this bullet is to emphasize that you may not provide and item pickup area that is outside of town. Items that are to be delivered are not referenced in that, as it is talking about "pickup" locations.
TLDR: The Forum Auction rules have no need for further adjustments at this time. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I respect yours, but it is not right for the Empire at this time. I'm sorry, but the rules that are in place will not be changing in the immediate future. While I understand your point of view, the current system achieves the goals as they have been set to the degree that is needed to maximize ease AND efficiency of the forum auctions for all players, new and old, young and not-so-young. While you may not agree with the idea that stricter rules provide a clearer guideline, as based off of the community interaction with the forums, I have to respectfully disagree. Making things more general AND more to the point AND more flexible is a contradicting statement. Feel free to attempt an overall draft and send it to me for analysis, but I assure you that no system is perfect with regards to all the aspects you have listed. We have what is considered the 'best' system in place at the moment and I see no need to fix something further if it is not actually broken currently.
Just a heads up on some of the new promos, since some people are confused about it: Cupid pig egg: Can be auctioned off, be it brand new or re egged. Love potion No. 9: CANNOT be auctioned off, it's a Contest/Award item.
Thanks for changing this (I've wanted it for a while), but why now are there still special EMC items that can't be auctioned off (the Award items)?
Due to the nature of the item and how it is obtained it is not right for us to encourage their auctioning on the forums. They are meant to remain as reminders of awards or trophies of contests won by the player themselves. IF the player feels the need to auction/sell it, then they may do so in-game.
This is another example showing why too specific rules are problematic. You're in the position where you now have to list items which may be auctioned, which makes you think that by doing so you are encouraging people to do it. I have the impression that there are other goals behind the auction rules - other than I listed above. Are there any? What is us trying to achieve? Why? Here is another example why quantity rules are worthy of amendment: http://empireminecraft.com/threads/49411/
