Rebalancing the Empire Economy [slow induce]

And don’t take what I say as a complaint, think of it as constructive criticism.
If you have thought these things through, then so be it.
It just really concerns me when you say that inflation does not harm savers.

Tossing money at problems is never an appropriate solution.
The root cause of the problem needs to be dealt with.

http://www.lulu.com/
Nah, but I think the amount of dedication a lot of people are putting into this topic is great!

What drives the economy here is building and personality. If I am not building anything no amount of Rupees in the world are going to force me to buy blocks. And I am not the type to buy my projects. Nearly every project I've ever made for myself or someone else, either in Town or in the Wild was made using mostly supplies I collected myself. Anything else I have used was purchased for what I considered a low price. Giving me more Rupees might skew my perception of cheap a little and maybe make me a feel a little more free with my spending, but overall it is not going to change the way I do things. Put me together with someone who buys everything and all giving us more Rupees is going to do is give me more Rupees in the end.

I've re-read posts and again I still don't see what we are wanting to fix. The only thing that can possibly make this "economy" more active is more desirable Rupee sinks and more Item sinks.

I get the feeling this is mostly about Iron bottoming out. We can't judge our economy's health based on the historical value of just one item. When was the last time anyone bought only one ingot anyway? It is roughly the same price as wood, wool, or netherbrick now and I don't hear anyone complain that those "markets" have bottomed out because they can't easily set the price of a single block. Instead we sell them by the stack or partial stack. You sell iron for 2r? I can compete with you by selling a stack for 120r. It is just not a problem as I see it.

One other thing about Iron and the economy as it relates to this subject. We have often discussed the pros and cons of Iron farms. One of the arguments that ICC made recently was that he finds MC more fun when he mines rather than using a farm. What is more Rupee income doing to those people who are more inclined to buy materials than to mine for them? How does someone who builds a farm and collects items from it compare to someone who hangs out in Town and buys everything from other people?

Well I have new opinion now...if had options to revote I think leave as is. chatting with ppl, I think big issue is alot ppl sit around and expect to much...people like some new ppl start shops...they are slowy gonna be catching up to us.(im not real rich but I save when I can) alot complaints from new ppl they want stuff NOW! when I started I had whatever tutorial gave me, and I made due. I went to wild I went to nether. I made my own living(in game : P) and I guess yes I would consider 100r chump change, why cause ive earned it thru selling and working for people.
(I still think ways to get more money out may help(don't take it as complaint/argument just my thought.)

So recap. we were all new at one point...and over time we got to where we are now.(most new ppl expect alot to be honest)

Sorry Aikar. I disagree with your economic theories.

If you devalue rupees, someone is going to be upset.

If new players join and they are given rupees and freebies, inflation does not rise because the additional players stimulate demand. They are buying stuff so prices remain the same.

Playing with prices and money supply … does stimulate a lot of activity. Most of it bad. And I don't see how this increases player's experience with EMC. If anything, manipulating the rupee supply and prices … in my opinion… will only drive players away.

The way to stimulate buying and selling is to increase economic activity. Value, in the mine craft world, is created when players go mining, create enchanted books (manufacturing), or dig a hole (a service). Manipulating the money supply does not do any of those.

Maynard Keynes' theory of stimulating the economy by increasing the money supply, is based on the idea… that the money supply was articifically shrunk by bank failures. People's life savings disappeared overnight. I think that premise is highly questionable. The truth was the banks stole people's money and closed their doors.

By playing with the rupee supply, I don't think you are solving any problems. Only creating them.

I want to see the EMC economy do great, I really do.
I care about EMC, which is why I have become a supporter, and will for as long as I can.
If I did not care, I would not have taken one second to either support, or voice what I think.

Giving more rupees for completing portions of the tutorial, awesome! Giving some basic supplies, great!
I have given away full diamond armor and tools to new players that are around and have some personality. Did I charge? No! I enchant for new people too, to help them out.

I am all for some new bonuses, etc... but look at the guides how to make rupees posted by some great players. How many people auction stuff like sand, stone, lava, etc? Easy way to get rupees!

Why not make some forum achievements earn you rupees? Like new player introductions?
Or in game achievements like 'getting wood' or 'mob hunter' earn you some extra rupees?

Changing the base of our economy, I am curious what the expected end results are, and what we will get. I tend to ask questions and see what the thought process is. I hope that anything I have written will be thought provoking, because it certainly is not intended to cause any ill will, nor to be construed as combative in any way, shape, or form.

I voted leave it alone, reasoning is this..

So we(aikar after hearing most players thoughts) decide to gradually raise income 10x and hope players raise prices in shops. Say 6 months from now we are at 10x everyone is getting 10x the amount they would have been getting today and shop prices did go up. Good it worked... for now. But In 1 year prices will start falling again as now everyone has the money, supply is somewhat low and shop owners will either compete for business (lowering prices) or players will simply harvest/hunt for the items themselves. If the players start harvesting/hunting for themselves this allows shop owners time to stock up and lower prices to compete. In both instances the shop prices will start dropping again and we'll be having this whole conversation again in 1 1/2 to 2 years. Then what... raise income again?

I do not have a solution to this economic downfall, but at least wait and see what 1.8 changes in the economy before deciding anything.

"you buy 3 million stock" is different than "I chopped down 10 DC's of wood that nobody will buy." The only thing I lost was a few diamonds for an axe and some time. The "worth buying back into" argument is moot in a case where I gained resources organically instead of paying for them. I would spend my time doing other things, just not chopping logs.

Aikar, I re-read your original post.
If you are concerned that a price of iron ingot is so low, that it negatively affects buying/selling e.g. 2 rupees each.
Can't you programmatically, allow players to price items at 2.5 rupees each instead?

i have nothing! lol i see your point. just instead of people having millions they will have tens of millions or even hundreds lol. items like iron will reach rock bottom in price eventually. Just delaying the enivitable

I am for whatever makes the server better. If increasing prices encourages more active voting for the server in order to get more rupees...so be it.
But I rather hear the "true" intentions of why an economy overhaul is necessary rather than the fluff being stated about low prices and hard to make a profit.
Just my 2 cents. Either way I still love this server. Cheers.
PS. I still vote for Rupees not sell stuff.

Possible, yes. But he mentioned somewhere in here that it would mess with a lot of the plugin programming.

he doesnt need to program anything... 45r for 2 blocks = 2.5 per.

I said leave it alone because this would only cause inflation. Inflation is not going to make things better. In the past year I have played on this server, jeb_ has taken over and is in reality worse than Aikar with the economy. He made many updates that added the possibility for many huge farms. These farms allow people to turn their computers on every morning as a daily routine, and afk for 14-18 hours at a time, gaining incredible amounts of resources. A year ago, saying you had a double chest of iron in town chat would suprise a ton of people. And now we are at double chests of emeralds, gold, diamonds, and even tier 2 apples. I remember when I bought a tier 2 apple for 2k because that is what they were worth, with gold at 25 rupees a piece.

My point is, this being inflation, pumping more rupees into the economy, people are not going to want to raise prices because they can make a standard profit selling at their old prices. We will see more auctions like a DC of diamonds, and not just from people who spent half a year with no sunlight, scavenging the bottoms of abandoned mineshafts and lava pools, you will see an average town dweller auction these things. And then, the diamond hunters and Megamall owners will start to auction a double chest of diamond blocks at a time, and an average person will be able to win these auctions. Ultimately, this will make the game less fun just pumping the economy with more and more money. This would be aikar's ultimate economy buster.

My solution: instead of pumping the economy up, you should target items like iron and gold and emeralds and make them harder to get. For example, if you believe iron is wayyyyyy too cheap, (which I agree with) you should nerf iron farms. If you take the drop rate of iron ingots from iron golems and cut it by three, you will have 6 rupee iron ingots being the mad cheap stuff. If you change the amount of paper it takes to get one emerald, you will have the same effect on emerald prices. Personally, I believe you should wait for change in 1.8 prices, as jeb has noticed this in the same way and is taking actions like I suggested to help solve these problems.

Aikar maybe introduce something like offering for new members 2 months being able to sell at a server provide location instead of frantically trying to find people to sell to. This would allow new players a gentler start and add more money into the economy.

PS: the 2 months would limit people using this feature mainly because it is to get people on there feet.
PPS: this location would offer prices that would try to rebalance certain items possibly.

Well all of those items are going to be nerfed in 1.8. BEFORE ANY changes aikar makes to the economy we should see what 1.8 has in store for emc.

Exactly my point.

I have seen setting bottom prices for items work control economy on other servers. this could help keep items at the price you want but it also leaves the fun out of a fluxuating. I wouldnt have played runescape if their economic system didnt fasinate me