[OLD] EMC Shops and Attractions

So, a shop that only sells a few items must offer 'cut rate' prices to bring people in. A small shop or a bulk seller might offer 'wholesale pricing', so it's actually possible for a mall to purchase and make a minimal profit. A mall or large shop that sells lots of items and wants to have everything available must put most items at 'retail' prices, which are usually still around half the cost of the empire store.

I'm not saying that you should use those terms, but trying to restate what you already know in balanced way. All of the price levels are reasonable when put into the context of the buyer and seller's wants/needs.

I find myself cringing at seeing a moderator with a shop ranking and critiquing other shops. We all have opinions and you can try to be honest and fair, but because of their exposure and the trust we put in them, I don't think Staff should put themselves in a position where they are recommending one shop over another.

It would be fine if there were some solid criteria to base the ratings on, but looks and prices are opinion. First impressions are hard to overcome. If someone's first impression of someone's shop is a negative one made by a moderator here, then that is going to be very hard to overcome.

Yes, these are issues with this whole system. Especially the more popular this thread becomes. It has always been 100% my decision on everything, what reses get listed where, the assessment of prices, or other features, and anything else i comment on. And those comments/assessments will most likely impact a shop/mall.

I also realise it's easy to assume bias when I own a mall of my own. (I just recently moved my own mall to the small list actually, as I have not been actively maintaining it). All I can say is that I am above bias. I have formed this thread for 2 reasons:

1. It's my own personal list I would use when looking for shops/malls/items.
2. If i'm going to spend the time checking out shops/malls, I might as well make the information accessible to other players. Especially those who have no idea what good price is, or where to find a shop.

I have been planning on, and still hope to form an updatible list of market values on all items. (OMG, that reminds me, I haven't made that thread on promo's FDNY, sorry). A list of item prices that can shift as the market shifts. Again, that list would be 100% my decision.

The reason its solely my input is simply that it's very easy for players to manipulate prices etc if they are allowed input on it. Which always happens, every time, trust me. Past experience has shown me that maintaining a list of places or prices where players have input is a lot more work than me simply doing it myself. and I have no wish to spend more time than i already do on this.

This is not an official ranking of shops/malls. It's a list aimed at including as many 'useful' shops as I can for players to go check out themselves. Giving an indication of price helps people find the shop they want, or prioritise which shops to visit first. If you are selling stuff, you want to find a shop with high pricing. if you want to buy stuff, you want to find a low price. It's just an indication (prices always vary in every shop).

Perhaps I should remove any reference to how a shop looks?

There really is no way to have 'solid criteria'. I've considered many things, and would love to have the process more transparent, so if you have any suggestions that won't require a heap more work for me, i'd like to hear them.

So yes, there is avenue for some bias. But this method is the least amount of work for me. And I rely on players to keep me honest and fair. If anyone has an issue with a comment or price assessment, feel free to contact me. I'll always try to see it from your POV.

If any other player would like to start up and maintain a better system for players to find shops/malls or attractions, or prices, you are welcome to. I've seen 2 others make a good try at it and abandon it.

As for this being done by a mod, well I'm not sure i see how that is relevant at all? Perhaps because being a mod lends more officialness to the thread? Well not much I can do about that. I did state the comments/assessment is purly NZScruffy's opinion. What more can i do?

I'd really prefer to not use such terms as 'cute rate', 'wholesale', 'retail'. In the real world, I find it frustrating that people hide behind words that mean so little, they are terms used in sales and marketing. Broad terms that really don't mean squat to the consumer. Terms that allow unscrupulous people to hide the real value with the excuse of 'well this is MY wholesale price, even if it's much higher than every other wholesaler'.

I'd prefer a descriptive word, that says exactly what it means, and not open to interpretation.
High price, low price, good price, competitive price. All pretty obvious meanings right?

erm.. slipped my mind. i really need to update the admin event reses.

I want you to know that I don't want to discourage you from maintaining this list since I think many people find it useful.

Everyone has bias. I have to trust that you will not let it influence your decisions since you have a position of power.

Opinion and bias are cousins. I don't think you would purposefully give a player's shop a negative review out of prejudice. I do think that your preferences are likely to influence someone else's opinion, so you need to carefully consider what you say in your reviews. I consider these reviews, not simple listings.

We can of course go to these shops and form our own opinion like I have, but not all players will do that. Many players are likely to interpret words like expensive or unfinished as meaning "Avoid this place because it is a rip-off." or "Don't bother because its a disorganized mess or out of stock", especially if they are said by someone whose opinions we are supposed to trust, like a staff member.

It is very relevant. You do not think that an opinion given by "NZScruffy - Moderator" has more weight than "NZScruffy - Member"? This lies at the heart of what I've already said. I feel you have an obligation not only to be unbiased, but also not to post things that might bias other people, when it comes to game play. Shops are a big part of the fun here for some people and what you say about them can make or spoil someone's day.

Take these two reviews for example:
2000 - Mega Mall 2000 - Todd_Vinton - Buy/Sell Everything, beautiful build, good prices.
405 - 405 SMP1Mall - ACInc - Buy/Sell everything, beautiful build, expensive (some cheap)

I personally don't like the guessing game type ingot exchanges like 2000 has and thought prices were generally on the high side when I checked it out. I also think that 405 is laid out more logically, but I might be biased because I consider Alex one of our pioneers in regards to big shops. I also don't see it as a shop that deserves to be labeled as expensive.

But I would never say those things about 2000 in a thread because it goes against the spirit of the "Don't attack others or their goods and services. If it's not nice, just don't say it." policy. And then there is the fact that my saying it would probably be trumped in many minds by your official opinion anyway.

If asked in chat I would probably give out both addresses if I knew them without regard to whether I liked one or the other better. I think that the job of a directory is to simply list the shops without prejudice.

Again, I don't want to discourage you from maintaining the directory. I do think that you should consider only listing shop locations and descriptions of what is available instead of reviews. That is my (hopefully unbiased) opinion.

hmm.. i so see your point. However, price is a very relevant thing. I list it because I for one am interested in knowing their pricing. I will not be removing it from the list. But I would like to find another way to represent it with no bias, and more clarity. If you have a suggestion on how that won't cost me a heap more work, please tell me.

I can remove comments like 'beautiful build', as you say, it's purely opinion.

"Expensive" is the wrong word to use. I will change the wording to 'High Prices'.

I'm not sure what to suggest. I do like that you are forcing criteria on shop owners by expecting that their shops be finished and stocked. I just would not want my shop listed with a description that might be perceived as negative.

I've always tried to think my pricing through regarding ingredients, the work to obtain items, and what other people are selling things for to come up with what I feel is fair. I would probably feel hurt or offended if you considered my prices high without considering the reasoning behind why I priced them as I did and especially so if you posted your opinion here.

I'm not sure how much more work you would consider a "heap"... Maybe you could let people volunteer a couple of item prices they think are good for their listing. Or better yet, let them suggest the wording for their own listing which would have to be verified to be generally true to go into the list. They would also have to notify you of any changes in order to stay in the list.

This would keep the listings positive and neutral, but still allow you to weed out descriptions like: "Lowest Diamonds on smpx.", or "The best shop anywhere.". Of course, if someone says they have "Good prices" and you feel that is an accurate statement, that won't hurt anyone. This would also allow someone that has a shop that they think has competitive sell prices to say that they "have small margins", or are a "good sell shop" rather than having themselves listed as "high priced".

Also, I wanted to comment on this which touches on my original point:

Unless we know the price of every item in every shop on every server, no words can be completely accurate and are still going to be used to describe your opinion of those prices.

You have clearly stated that the store descriptions are your opinions, so please say whatever you feel is accurate. There have been times when I have been willing to pay more for items because they were easily available and the shop had everything I wanted. At those times, I would be looking for 'well stocked' in the description and I would not be as concerned with 'high, medium, low' price, because I already know what I am willing to pay.

So, if you are willing to maintain a list like this, I am willing to accept your opinions. It's very hard work because people and shops come and go frequently on game servers.

I don't think it matters which word you are using, because either way, you are saying that you are giving the prices a negative rating. I think the empire store is where all the high prices are (it is intended to set the top of the market)

I had a really hard time setting prices for my store because people would come and buy everything I had and then sell it in their mall for even more. I couldn't keep up with demand, so I raised prices on those items. Then I got complaints from my regular customers because my prices were too high or I didn't have the things they wanted in stock. Eventually I had everything that I will ever need to play the game and earning rupees isn't of much concern to me. Now, I don't complain about people's prices because I understand it in a different way than I did before.

Thanks for all your hard work and for supporting our community with your listings.

All big mall owners have to think the same things through. It's one of the challenges of running a mall. And I don't decide on what the average price is, all shop owners do. If you feel offended that your prices are higher than others, that's not really something I can help you with.

Like I have said before, running a mall isn't a hugely profitable exercise. the profit is often very slim given the time/cost of obtaining/crafting the items. It's the main reason so many malls close down.

If I start letting players judge their own pricing, or writing their own comment, I run into more problems with people debating what comments are true/ok, and what are not. By doing it myself, i avoid all that, it's simple. I already rely on people notifying me of changes to stores to maintain the list.

I've also begun linking the entries to owners threads, if they have them. They can say whatever they like in their thread about their price, advantages of the mall etc. And I strongly recommend mall owners do that, include a list of everything you sell if you wish. Or special sale items, other services, etc.

If I am deciding whether an owners comment is valid, aren't I just doing what I already do anyway? And decide on the comment myself?
Actually, I had an idea: How about making this thread one big 'advertiser'? So owners can still have their own thread, but I will also link each 'comment' section to a post in this thread. Then the owner can write whatever they like. and edit their post when they want something updated/changed. Players reading the list can click the link in the comment section to view the players 'blurb' for their res. That should allow both my own assessment, and for a player to promote their shop. (I'd prefer to have more info in the list comment, but that gets unnecessarily spamy, so i keep it brief).

I think I will add a paragraph explaining the advantages of high and low prices also. People do not seem to grasp the idea that high price is good for selling to a shop.

I would love someone to take the time to enter all prices of all shops into a data base / spreadsheet and spit out the price range, and average value. I really don't have the time to do that. But I basically do just that in my head. It's how i get my average values.

I've checked most of these shops and his ratings do seem very fair. I find it very useful but I do see where you are coming from Pab10S.

I know you do. It was your comment that made me decide to say something.

I'm giving up. If you don't understand at this point I am wasting time. I'll request that you do not bless any shops that I am involved with by reviewing them. Since you already have, I know that you know which ones to remove since you know everything there is to know and have memorized every price there is.

I believe I do understand what you are saying. I just believe your point is outweighed by other things. I weighed up options on how i'd do this, and found this way the simplest and most informative.

Hmm... as you wish. I can remove your shops if that is what you want. Sorry if my thread/process offends you that much.

Could we add the waste public head farms.
SMP1: /north waste
SMP4: /east waste
i dont know on the other smps but it would be great addition to the list in this thread

ATM, I am not adding outside town locations.
I am looking into creating a list of public farms, and community base threads. Just working out how I'd do that.

[Res # 3977] Apcmagician's Store, Apcmagician's, Small shop with very good stock and very good prices

A Mall I know of 8395 (res) caden672 (Owner) Caden672's Mall (Name) Sells Most Items, Still needs to add some sections but owner is too lazy. (other Info0

Update on 14450. It has expanded a lot and now sells spawn eggs, (some) hostile mob drops, food items, all wood and saplings, ores and ingots, and (some) building blocks. It also has free to use utilities and is built around 4 lvl2 beacons.

Hi there! Can you add my Potion Shop called "Clare's Potions" its on res 6769 SMP3? Hope you like it! Thankyou!