Interesting. Before I take your word for it, tell me, do you have to go to school at a specific time during the day, or are you free to come and go as you please? Are all classes the same length and does everybody have to do the same thing at once, i.e. are there "math classes", "geography classes" and so on, and you don't get to pick what you want to learn, and when? Is there a curriculum, or are you allowed to choose yourself what you're interested in and want to learn? Do teachers have strong authority over the students and their day, telling them what they are supposed to learn, and when, or are they simply there to help the students when they ask for help?
I know when I was in middle school (US)/secondary school (UK), we got to choose our subjects. However, some were manditory as 'vital skills'(Mathematics, English, Core Sciences (Which you could trade in for Triple Science - Biology, Chemistry + Physics)). The lessons you wanted were, obviously, timetabled otherwise there would be teachers working around the clock with people wandering in and out during concepts. I don't know of any sources for the opposite, probably because those people are too lazy to write them as they've already got their way with public schooling being the norm. One thing that does bug me about public schooling in the UK is that we were forced to choose a subject based on what the school specialised in. For example, my school was a languages college and so we were forced to pick either Spanish, French, German or Italian. I already wanted to learn Spanish, anyway, so it wasn't so much of a hassle for myself. [EDIT] Also, I'm sure our group was an exception to the rule. By age groups within school, I meant year groups.
I don't really know what I'm talking about here, but I can't imagine how it would be possible to find the resources to teach every student what they wanted to be taught at the time that they wanted to learn it. I can see how this works in the small scale, for example in the school that you mentioned before, but I can't see where the resources would come from to make a system with as much freedom as you suggest, although it would clearly be a better system if it did work. For example, you'd need nearly as many teachers as pupils. I can back this up, as when somebody is late to a lesson, the teacher ends up repeating everything that they'd said prior to the student arriving, or the student wouldn't understand what was going on. So in a system where all students can come and go as they please, they'd each need a private teacher who would start teaching when the student arrived. Now, I've got a geography past paper to do... xD
The problem with school, truly, is that it's unnecessary. You don't need teachers, you don't need schools, you don't need classrooms, curriculums, superintendents, grading, and all that. Let a child be free, and they will learn what they need. This philosophy is called unschooling, and it's what I will do with my own children. By the way, I'm talking about lower-level education here. To become a medical doctor, engineer, policeman, and other skilled jobs, you need specialized education, of course. This doesn't interfere at all with the unschooling principle. To let someone into medical school, e.g., have them take a test to see if they meet the basic requirements. The requirements of this test should be publicly available, so that as soon as a person (typically children/adolescents) who know they want to become medical doctors are ready, they can start learning the basic skills they need for that particular line of education. By setting forth such requirements for every profession, you can let those who know what they are interested in focus on the things they need, while not forcing those who don't need those things to sit through them. Studies and experiments on the matter (lots of these available through Peter Gray's Freedom to Learn blog) show that if you don't force children into learning, they will learn on their own and they will learn better than under the careful guidance of adults. Humans are born as information and knowledge sponges, but the pores of this sponge easily gets clogged by taking the fun out of learning like school does.
I've got to the stage in my education where I'm starting to specialise and I've got a pretty good idea of what I want to do in the future. I'm however glad that I was forced to sit through the other subjects that have nothing to do with what I want to do in life, as I feel that I have a wider horizon, and I feel generally better informed. Also, most skills that you are taught in certain subjects are applicable to many situations in life, so I think it's worth having a broad foundation to base more specialised education on. However, I agree that forcing some people to sit through things that don't interest them might alienate them from education as a whole. In terms of unschooling, it sounds an interesting idea, and it would probably work in principle. The only thing that worries me is that it puts a lot of trust on parents, and lets face it, many parents can't be trusted to do the best for their children, unfortunately. I can imagine the more privileged in society benefiting from this form of education, but leaving those with parents who are less interested in education (perhaps they were alienated by it as a child) behind. This effect could cause the inequality gap to widen, surely? Schools and institutions are, in my opinion, needed to do their best to keep the playing field as level as possible. I reckon there was a larger inequality gap before compulsory schooling began in the 1800s than now, and I don't think that there's much room for children to learn when they're working in a coal mine (no, not a minecraft one). Although people criticise the education system, as the failures are clear, I think that it still gives many more people the chance to achieve their potential than if there wasn't a structure to support all children, no matter about their background. If unschooling has a way to ensure that all children will receive its benefits, then fair enough!
To tackle Alex's first point: In my grade (10th) kids range from ages 14-17. The 14 year olds are just as smart and physically active (sports and such) as the 17 year olds, the 15 year olds, or the 16 year olds. We all socialize together, and I can assure you that none of us will be actively excluding others just because they are younger or older. Sure, they might be driving earlier or getting girlfriends earlier, but that all depends on the person. The thing is, interacting and socializing with peers of your own age is typically the way to go. Theoretically, you could divide schools into grades by maturity level, but there is hardly a FEASIBLE way to measure maturity. You can measure it by how much they know about sex or other 'adult' topics, but they could know everything about sex and still be quite immature about it. You could measure it by physical specifications only, but the mind can be and act COMPLETELY differently than you would think by making assumptions based on outward appearances. Also, when you study at a school, you are absorbed into that community, no matter how much you DON'T want to be there, just as some people hate the family they are born into. And inter-generational trust can be earned through interacting with your teachers, who can vary in age. Their experiences in the 'real world' are often passed down to their students through anecdotal references. For example, in math class the other day, my teacher started off class by asking us a simple question: What do you want to be? Lots of kids answered stuff like firefighters, lawyers, doctors, engineers. Some people wanted to go into journalism, sports, etc. He then talked about how important it is to consider not only the pay and 'funness' of the job, but to consider the day-to-day workload, as he used to be a patent lawyer prior to becoming a math teacher. He told us that he became a patent lawyer because of the pay, but that every week, he had to go through a whole FLOOR of documents his firm had spread out for him. And I'm not taling the floor of your house, I'm talking a big, industrial-size space dedicated to JUST the documents he had to go through in a week. he hated it, so he became a math teacher, and he loves it. He enjoys the fact that he can affect how a kid feels about school, or learning. Sure, the kids who don't pay attention may not get equal treatment from the teacher, but is it the teacher's fault if they do not feel the need to try to teach a kid if they don't want teaching? We are not free to come and go as we please, but our schedules will change day-to-day depending on free periods, freak scheduling days, etc. But even if we were allowed to come and go as we please, do you know who would show up to school at all? Teachers, and maybe the few students who have nothing better to do. But most of us would be staying home, playing videogames, eating, talking, maybe even getting in some quality time with our girlfriends/boyfriends. (My school is co-ed, by the way.) That would be a complete waste of the school's time and resources. There are set classes, however, those are the 'core skills' like Malicali mentioned. (math, english, etc.) Everything else gives you credits. For example, you have to take at least one year of an Arts History class sometime during your high school career, but you can take it freshman year, or you can take it senior year. And you can choose WHICH Art History class you want to take: Western Music, Visual Arts, Theater History, etc. And there are also 'electives' of which you can choose which ones you want to take. They consist of woodshop, 'Twilight Zone' (where we watch episodes of Twilight Zone) and lots of other stuff, consisting of fun electives, art electives, and academic electives. All of them count towards a credit, and you have to take 2 of any to graduate from my school. Plus, if we were allowed to choose EVERY class, most everyone would just take 'Twilight Zone' 5 days a week, save the kids who actually care. And the teachers do not DICTATE what we learn. For example, in math class, we will go over an assignment (full of many different concepts) from the night before and figure out what people had trouble on. If no one had any problems with logarithms, then we don't go over that as the teacher sees no need. If no one could figure out feasibility regions, then we'll go over that until everyone has it somewhat figured out. And teachers are ALWAYS available (except when they're in class, but you can always talk to them right after or before a class) in their offices to help kids who aren't getting it. Like Will said, you can't trust all parents to let their kids learn whatever they want. What if a kid wants to learn java, but their parents have no knowledge of it, other than that it's also a type of coffee? In this case (like homeschooling) children are limited to learn what their parents know or are willing to know. Sorry for the lengthiness of this response, I am just trying to make my voice clear.
this is completely sad to see. shame on the parents, they should have taught their child better than to be a ____ . wow.
No, there were classes at fixed times, and yes there there specific start times. This teaches you a little something called punctuality; a very important life skill. Yes the classes are all the same length... I don't know about schools in America, but here the classes where one hour each, there were two one hour classes and a "morning tea" break which was 20 minutes and then another two one hour classes then came a 40 minute lunch and to finish off the day one one hour class. The way that is structured right there immediately shows you that it is tailored so as to balance play time to learning time. Here we don't use the grade system. We use the year system. Primary school is year 1 - 6, middle school is year 7 - 10 and Senior school is year 11 - 13. Obviously it is granted that in primary school you have no choice in what you are learning because what is being taught to you in this stage of your schooling is what you will carry throughout the rest of your schooling... basic arithmatic, getting into good homework habits, listening skills, motor skills for Physical Education, being able to make friends, being able to socialise with people. Primary schooling is the foundation of a childs schooling career. Right, moving on to middle school means moving on to a separate school here in NZ. Middle school and Senior school where at the same school for me. So in year 7 you do "core" subjects. By core I mean basic Maths, Sciences, social studies, english etc. And from then onwards the number of options you get for your subjects increases: Year 8: Compulsory - English, maths, science, health (Sex Ed)*, physical education**, social studies. Optional - Music, Technologies (Cooking, sewing, woodwork, metal work, computer technology) Graphics, art, drama. (two options are chosen) Year 9: Compulsory - English, maths, science, health, physical education. Optional - Music, Technologies (Cooking, sewing, woodwork, metal work, computer technology) Graphics, art, drama. (two options are chosen) Year 10: Compulsory - English, maths, physical education. Optional - Music, Technologies (Cooking, sewing, woodwork, metal work, computer technology) Graphics, art, drama. Science splits into chemistry, biology and physics. (4 options are chosen) Year 11: Compulsory - English, physical education. Optional - Music, Technologies (Cooking, sewing, woodwork, metal work, computer technology) Graphics, art, drama. Science splits into chemistry, biology and physics. accounting, economics, Maths now is optional splitting into two sub straights; calculus and statistics. (5 options are chosen) Year 12: Compulsory - English. Optional - Music, Technologies (Cooking, sewing, woodwork, metal work, computer technology) Graphics, art, drama, chemistry, biology, physics.,accounting, economics, calculus, statistics, physical education. *** Year 13: Everything is optional. The list of subject may have some subjects missing, this is just a list from what I can remember from my time at school. Plus this is just to give you and idea of what the structure of learning is here. Note* Sex ed is what you all have been talking greatly about in this thread. Note** Physical education is compulsory right up to year 12 as per a government regulation. Note*** In order to do calculus, statistics, physics, chem, bio in later years, the student has to have done the course in prior years. This leads onto the topic of a careers advisor, something I will talk about later down the post. I would like to point out that yes you are forced to do the core subjects, but that is because ANY job now a days requires you to have a decent level of ability with communication skills - your english, mathematic skills - your maths and your science. People may not think it but in 98% of jobs, a decent level of mathematics is required. I don't know if you got these two people at schools in America, but at my middle/senior school we had a Guidance councillor - someone that was able to help you with anything at all. Whether it be some bullying, parental issues, family issues, loss of someone etc the guidance councillor was there to help you. Then we have the Careers Advisor, who helps you find what career path you are interested in taking upon leaving school and what are the subject requirements for this path choice. Throughout middle school, little workshops are held where students are able to go online and take a quiz where they answer some questions about what interests them and then at the end of the quiz, are given numerous options as to what job would suit them. Towards the end of middle school and certainly in your Senior years there would be 1 on 1 meetings with the careers advisor to see what it is that you really want to do, and what are the subject and grade requirements to do that. For me I have always wanted to do Engineering. I have always had that firm idea in my head that Engineering would be the thing for me. Yes, I know I am one of the lucky ones who immediately know what they are going to do. But, thats what the Career Advisor's main job is to do; help students find a job/ tertiary course suited for them. So for example: Engineering, I knew that I had to do Maths, predominantly calculus, physics, english and chemistry. Any other subject I So anyway, through the many meetings I had with the Advisor, (oh just on a side note, the meetings are not forced onto you. You actually have to stand up and take action for your own education) I was able to learn things like, all the many Universities that offer Engineering courses, what engineering discipline I wanted to focus on and go into, what made one University better than the other etc. And at the end of my schooling I was able to move out and into University fully knowing that this is what I wanted to do, and I felt great about it. Your comment, "schools are like prisons" I think is flawed in many aspects: Prisons are for criminals who have commited very serious crimes, children are not criminals. Prisons are just concrete, steel and glass. Classrooms are not, they are furnished to make you comfortable in your learning. Prisons hold in people and dont let them into the outside world past the barbed wire. With school after 6 hours a day, you are free to go home and do what ever the heck you want. If it be doing your homework, good on you! If not then thats your choice. Bottom line is, 6 hours a day is nothing! 24 hours a day minus 6 for school, minus say 8 for sleep and you are left with 10 hours to do what ever you want! (24 - 6 - 8 = 10) Let me just put this into proportion for you... school makes up 25% of the day, granted you do sleep for 8 hours a day (not that I do, this is the absolute extreme value I am working with) this makes up 33% of the day, leaving 42% of the day to do what ever the heck you want. 42%!! That is nearly half of the day. Now I ask you to compare this to prison... Uhm, nothing much to do really, but say that yep, prison makes up 100% of the day. So in this respect, prison is vastly different to school. From watching a TV show called "Americas toughest prisons" I can say that in prisons everything is a ritual, you eat, sleep, brush your teeth, take a crap, go for a walk at this, this, this and this time of day. There is no leniency to straying outside of these times. Whereas with schools, the teachers are pretty lenient. The teachers are only doing what they do to best prepare you for what is to come after you time at school. If you come in late for a legitimate reason, the teachers will help you if you missed something, i.e when the teaching for the lesson is done and the class work begins the teacher would move to the students desk and take them through what he/ she missed. There is not foul mood on the teachers. It is in there best interest that they teach you well, after all that is there job. Yes, teachers do have a strong authority. This is something that is necessary, you can't have a class full of misbehaving students when there are some in the class that actually want to learn something. Hence why detentions etc are dished out. You can't have a bunch of students graffitiing the school and defacing property, hence why detentions are dished out. You see, there are certain rules that every school has. They are set in place for a reason. And that is to create a suitable learning environment for all. Theres my Dark_Liz type addition to this thread. *Edit* You say school is unessential do you? Ha, then we will end up with an uneducated society that wont be able to drive the world into the future. The way I see it, the way learning is done now is perfect. You are guided along the way to ultimately holding a "profession" Take schools and Universities away and we will be right back to the cavemen times where we use stone tools, and whack each other over the head with wooden clubs. The thing is, school is neede for children because it broadens the horizon for them. If a child is never made aware of school then they will not have the desire to learn. The schooling system is put in place for a reason, and that is to drive the human race into the future educated enough to deal with anything that might await.
You know what is rather funny about all this? The fact that they either snuck out for the night, or there parents let a male/female spend the night with an opposite sex. Now if the girl did get pregnant. The girl would Be in lots and lots of trouble. And the boy could get in lots of trouble. And were all forgetting its against the law to have sexual activity before 18.
LOLOLOL back onto this topic are we? Ok then, I'll start with this aspect of the discussion: Yea sure because condoms are effective all the time ae? They never break ae? and the bad aspect: STI's are 100% protected from if you use a condom ae... NO Condoms are not effective all the time, they do break, and STI's are still transmitted. So kids the best form of contraception is abstinence, remember that. Meaning do not have sex until you are with the one you truly love and want to have a child with
Right, here we go, I kept it a little bit shorter than the last topic.. SEX IS LIKE DUCT TAPE! I will explain: Something I learnt from my sex ed classes. Sex is what unites a couple, it is an act that fulfils each others promise to one another. So a metaphor I like using is: Sex is like duct tape. Ripping the duct tape off is extremely painful, especially the first time - just as the break up of a sexual relationship can be more painful than a regular one. It may seem progressively easier to "tear off" with subsequent partners, but you can't make it stick on command when you finally decide to make the great commitment to an individual. Basically, the more you have it, the less stickier the tape will become, and when you do ultimately find the one you love, sex will not have its true meaning, (the tape will not stick).
I think that this thread should be closed. In my mind, it's not really an appropriate discussion with the amount of younger children on EMC.
I dont feel much more differently than this here either. This thread actually seems to have quite a healthy debate/discussion going on. But some of its contents are a little... I dont know, Inappropriate. I am not saying that it is bad to talk about contraceptives, or the outcomes of having intercourse at a young age, its naive and ignorant to say that conversation is not healthy to have. However, I do not believe a forum about Minecraft and other gaming things is quite the place to have it. On my own volition I am locking this thread, if another mod chooses to unlock I will not argue it, but I will suggest that those partaking in this discussion find another means of communicating on this subject. I have enjoyed reading alot of the intelligent replies here, I just do not believe that this content is suitable for EMC.
