[Feature Discussion] Empire Shop Update v2

Ok, just read all 10 pages and have a question that hasn't been asked yet. Aikar, your anti-undercutting function. Will it be smart enough to not punish a player caught in a "reverse" undercut war, or will this not be an issue?

Example: 5 players have the lowest price on some item. 4 of them get together and decide to raise their prices, leaving one player with the lowest price. will that player suffer the extra fees for having the lowest price? Or will that only come into play when someone actually sets their price lower?

I just thought of something else too. An undercut war could still be orchestrated. Say 5 people (as per the number used in anti undercut example) all lower their prices on an item to a ridiculously low amount. Is this not a way to undercut everyone else while defeating that feature? Just thinking out loud of potential pitfalls which you may have already thought of.

Oh and by the way, I support the shop update. I think once everyone understands how to use it, they'll realize how easy it is. I, personally, can't wait for this update to try it out for myself.

Great update Aikar .. Although I wish there was still some sort of not ingame ecnomy It seems with this system that is possible too. With the buy with a fee thing the Express Delievery could be implimented on the site also.

I would loving having both or have the forum auctions directly interconnected with the Econ. Almost like a Widget with a bid button and current bid and stuff like that so people would!it have to post every time to make a bid. And when the auction is over you will auto pay and recieve the item.. AND you wouldn't be able to bid with insufficient funds! That would keep false bids out of play.. I think that would be a really cool thing to have. I have seen something like that on a different server using WebAuction or something to auction things off using a web browser for MC...

Again great job and keep up the good work!

Too radical? Wow, I didn't expect that.
Simple, natural exchange and monetary system that was in use
for thousands of years is too radical and would upset someone?
Come on...

There are some misapprehensions to clear.
I'd suggest that you visit someone who understands economy and whom you can trust.
I'm quite sure any assistant at a college would help you free of charge.
Show him/her this thread.

The ingame economy you're planning to introduce, tweak, tune and keep in check can be
in several important aspects very well compared to some specific RL economies.
Can you figure out which ones? Anyone?

It is not necessary to (try to) show my proposal in bad light or use idea killers.

All the best,
MM

PS: the $1 cheeseburger from McDonalds from 10 years ago is still $1
- although the price increase ((due to) inflation) in 10 years in the US was about 50% -
mainly because the production costs were significantly reduced.

What he means is, you're proposing to change our entire system which works 100% fine. Our new system will require a little adjusting by people, but doesn't change the overall, you get rupees, you spend rupees at chest shops, etc. You clearly don't like the idea of getting rupees, and that's cool, some people don't. However, those that don't simply donate theirs to other players or contests as prizes. I really think our system is and will be fine for time to come

I dont see why you are pointing to RL economies. We cant replicate that, without bringing everyone done to like, zero rupees. Since we dont have plants you can work at, nor a janitor. The daily bonus is our paycheck. If we didnt, it would get down to zero rupees, since nobobdy could buy anything. And if you held on to them, those pesky IRS people would steal it all.

Ok one issue about the anti-undercutting system. What about people who sell dirt for like 50r for use as a donation or game fee receptacle? Will that affect it? If so, can we get a different system for donations/game fees?

Not really uproot and change entire system. Just not to create problems by "printing" money.
It is not necessary.

If it would work fine, there would be no need to add fees and taxes, tweak and keep it in check. No need to artificially control it and play a _________ government.
(Insert the matching kind of government, the first one gets 10,000r from me, the second one 5,000 and so on. Do not spam the thread, send a PM please.)
(Which kind of RL economy is closest to what Aikar proposes (without realizing it as it seems)? Anyone?)

Aikar (and other) do realize that this rupees emission creates immense problems, (see posting #130, look for "10 million rupees per day"), but he tries to solve the problem in a wrong way.
It really needs to be dealt with at its cause.

Dear sneeker, once again, if you read carefully: the system Aikar proposes is copying of the RL, we have seen all of this in RL, and it did not went good.

I did not yet mention, that introducing any kind of undercut-prevention or similar artificial price-control system is a very, very, bad idea.
(Exception: to prevent cheating. But if it disturbs normal trade in any way, it is not good, it hurts more than it helps.)

I am pointing to some important aspects of RL economies only to explain the problems - because simple natural laws apply in the same way to both RL and ingame economies.
Diamond dupe in EMC => people losing 100s thousands rupees, market problems, if it would continue => crash.
Money dupe in RL => World financial crisis 2008-present.
Money dupe in EMC => guess what.

Why? Because bad economy system hurts exchange and development, it hurts gameplay and people in the end.

Why? Simply said, because it goes against simple natural laws that apply to every economy, even the ingame one.

Paycheck? Without work? No plants?
Now come on ... You can not get out and dig few stacks of coal or cobble or something?
If no one can, what will you buy for the rupees you get without playing and effort?
Do you realize what you're saying?
It is nonsense.
(Sorry if this is hard, I'm not trying to offend, just to make you think again.)

I'll try to explain through scenarios.

Turn 1

Supporters get rupees without effort.
Supporters can pay others to get stuff for them.
There are enough supporters, so the total amount they can spend is significant.
Prices rise because there is more and more money available, but the time that can be spent on getting and producing stuff is limited.
With the increase in prices, supporters effortless income loses its value.
Eventually it is not significant any more, i.e. supporters do not have that income any more.
So, the system stabilizes itself in a natural way.
So far, so good.

Turn 2

The supporters cry to "the government" that their income is too low and needs to be adjusted.
"The government" does it.
Prices rise even faster.
Back to Turn 1.

Turn 3

"The government" sees there is a problem and tries to drain the money through taxes and fees.
Prices rise even further and drain the money from supporters.

The system is instable:
A) If there are not enough supporters or if they are not spending the money,
then the money drain is too strong, commoners end up with empty pockets,
they can not buy or sell stuff, the trade using rupees dies.
Commoners start to exchange goods directly, like paying with coal.

B) If there are even more supporters spending money, the drain is
not strong enough, the prices rise, back to Turn 1.

So, anyway, the system stabilizes itself in a natural way - but the problem is not solved.
The exchange and development are disturbed.
It hurts!

Turn 4

"The government" sees there is a problem and tries to control the prices.
For example, this happens automatically when the prices reach the /shop level.
Supporters do not need to go anywhere but can buy from /shop.
Commoners can not sell anything at an appropriate price.
The trade using rupees dies out.
Commoners start to exchange goods directly, like paying with coal.

So, the system stabilizes itself again in a natural way.
But, the exchange and development are disturbed.
It hurts!

Can't beat the laws of the nature.
No chance.

Well, we can discuss this again and you can bring up these points again if anything bad happens like this in the future. However, for the remainder of THIS topic, let's keep it on path to the new feature discussion.

Sure. I'm in.
(It will happen if there is significant money emission and spending of it. We have had all of this in RL many times in the last 100 years.)
It is a game, and we can play this very interesting game with the proposed system.
In contrast to the RL, no one will really get robbed or killed. No PvP, no wars.

This is possibly even more challenging than what I've proposed.
(And I have a huge advantage ... )

I just thought the kids should not think that this system is natural and healthy one.
But we can try to educate and explain what game we're playing.

M1ner, again, who are you to know exactly how EMC works, and exactly what will happen, if you are but a new member? Please explain. Unless if you just started using the forums. And no need to throw petty insults at us by making us seem lower then you, or attempt to insult our intellegeince by elegantly repeating your same reasons.

Okay guys, no more responding to each other on that topic. If you wish to continue (nicely) please move it to a PM.

I am so tempted to go get that bear meme..... But fair enough. So..... Ya like trains?

Will this be coming out soon, or are you waiting until after the 1.3 update?

Edit:
Oh there was something else I wanted to ask too. Someone else asked it but I don't know if he got his answer. If I used the quickbuy function to buy a whole inventory's worth of one item and no one store had enough to fill the order, does it buy from multiple stores to complete it?