If an account does not meet the requirements as stated in the original post, it may take longer (depending on the necessary staff's availability. I sent out some pings for any outstanding appeals (through our support system).
I'm very happy to see you guys doing this, this is very characteristic of EMC. I was banned roughly five years ago (actually almost exactly) and could not be more happy that my appeal was accepted, reluctantly I'm sure. I've had a lot of fun here since then.
Sounds awesome! So glad that you guys are nice enough to give people a second chance. I don't think any other server would do this cool of a thing.
Well, that seems stupid. Then positively there are regular griefers who get back to do another bit every month.
Ya you can argue both sides. Quite a few big servers have it as extreme as if you pvp hack and use kill aura its a one week ban and if you say "yes I hacked" then its only 3 days for kill aura hacking. Now I'm not gonna be saying emc should be doing 1 week bans thats insane but I feel most players that come back do more good then harm so maybe instead of perma 6 months maybe? I don't know Its just an opinion.
If that is so, than please enlighten us on that "why". Are you saying that how minor stealing and griefing is handled on EMC isn't (wasn't) just created and tuned to minimize the needed moderation skills and effort? Are you saying that it is actually the optimal way? I think it's cheap and suboptimal for the most common types of offenses. I'll try to explain why. Between preadolescent (most of the members here) minor stealing and griefing is a common thing, especially shortly after they join the server. The reasons for this are well known and it is not that they are genuine and incurable "bad" people that ought to be removed from the community. Still, such offenses are treated with a permanent ban and then optionally a purge, which, from the game perspective is capital punishment with optional "reincarnation". From the perspective of offender: Is there a higher level of shame than to be permanently banned? I don't think so. Is permanently banning someone showing that you care about them? No. Is a "purge" somewhere about the just punishment for minor stealing or griefing? No. Permanent ban and "purge", in that case, is huge escalation of violence. One may think that it is a deterrent, but it is way over the top, and even if, it doesn't work. From the perspective of the victim: Will the stolen goods be returned, the damage repaired? No. Will the victim receive an apology? No. Is the "we've handled that" satisfactory? No. Is the idea that the offender has been "executed" giving relief and satisfaction? Perhaps only partially in a very primitive, negative way, and only until one learns that the problem hasn't been solved. Then the aggression that would have been directed against the offender turns against the "bad" people among us and possibly even broader. It is easier than easy to paint the picture black and white and evoke the primitive "kill them all" sentiments. As the victim further gets insight in what is happening, it is more obvious that the way it is handled now is not satisfactory. From the perspective of other (mainly non-staff) community members Is there a benefit of having another member banned because of minor stealing or griefing? No. In contrary - the community loses twice - once because of the griefing and then again because of the ban. And that doesn't feel good at all. Perhaps it's a benefit for other competing servers, as it is easy to start over on another server. -*- You care to prevent escalation of violence, which is very much needed, but the way you're doing that is actually a workaround and not a solution, and it is violence again which won't help reduce further violence. It misses to enhance and amplify the community's potential in handling the problem and it prevents development in those aspects. You care to protect the offender (from public shame and retaliation), which is a good intention, but you not only miss that target, but you also miss to care about the other side, as well as, in that matter, to care about the community as a whole. The victim, who should be protected in the first place, is completely forgotten. You're trying to hide the problems instead of showing them, you're trying to take the burden on yourself and the staff team, you're trying to parent the community... That goes as far as comparing the community with "mob mentality". I think, at least in a long term, that this is not the optimal. More that that: IMO, it is not sustainable, but perhaps we could try to ask an expert in (online) sociology. Is "mob mentality" all that the community is capable of in the discussed matter? I'm not convinced. Generally, if you just minimize effort, if you try to avoid problems instead of looking for solutions, if you act out of fear of "what might happen if", then you can not expect to reach high quality, and neither to reach an optimum. -*- On the "jail world" (I would rather call it "the wild world", "wild" meaning "not civilized"): Would it be any more visible than to friends of the offender, would it be more shameful? No, it would be less visible than "/p" with permanent ban, it would be less shame. Would it be more visible to the victim, would the victim have more chance to learn the identity of the offender? No. Would it be more inviting for retaliation than what we have now? No. Repair of the damage and an apology is the way to go - I'm positive on that. Would it be more visible to not involved players? Yes, and I don't see any problem with that. Being aware of what happens and being aware that stealing and griefing is handled in a good way is a positive influence. Your comparison with the giant sign "I did something wrong" in front of the whole shool doesn't hold here. Perhaps we could ask the banned about what they think is better way. I wouldn't call community culture "mob mentality." Harsh (and especially capital) punishments and oversimplification is way more a "mob mentality." It is a sign, a hint for few things. About how you and members see your role(s). About the "ban cult" - presence of and occupation with violence. Perhaps even about the comparison with "Lady Justice".
How do you know that? I'm genuinely interested in where that info is from One thing to keep in mind is that when someone griefs/steals - and when that culminates in a ban - what they're doing is not an accident. That rule isn't heavily emphasised for the fun of it. Off the top of my head, it's mentioned in the tutorial, /rules, the Wiki/forums, and at each entrance point to the Wild/Waste. To say "oh, kids will be kids, everyone does that" seems (to me) to be normalising something which, to take your rhetorical point and turn it around, shows a explicit (in the player choosing to disregard the rules) lack of care for the players they're griefing/stealing from. That is not caring about the community as a whole. Also, the resolutions that staff employ scale and vary depending on individual circumstances (which in itself completely rebukes the idea that the team avoids effort, one I do not understand or accept). It seems to me like you're saying we apply the ban to every single instance of griefing/stealing, which would be incompatible with that idea. Do not get me wrong, a perm ban is what players should expect if they grief/steal, but it is not taken lightly, it is not the only action used by staff, and I have never seen it used if doing so wouldn't be fair. Those are my personal two cents.
I did explain why. That was the whole purpose of my response. Punishments are the way they are because the community decided that. Feel free to hang staff high for it, but we asked the community and the community told us that they were sick of griefers getting a slap on the wrist. Maybe you personally don't hold that ideal, but read through the responses in this thread. Not everyone is like you and thinks that everyone is an innocent teenager 'acting out'. Newsflash: we all think differently. The players in particular that outvoted others in favor of harsher punishment want players that break the rules to be punished in a way that makes them stop and learn a lesson. We have a very good balance of that in our staff team at this time, regardless of what you think goes on behind scenes. Seriously, it only takes being respectful and honest in an appeal usually in order to get back on the server if it's your first offense. It's practically a slap on the wrist to some players still. There's no other secret behind it.
I agree Krysyy, I ran into a situation where I had an issue, I got staff to investigate and I got banned for 24 hours. Now I didn't grief or steal I was just upset and said bad things to a player. I'm 40 years old and knew better but my temper won and I lost. I was not upset to be banned, I deserved it. It did teach me how staff is fair and just when it comes to "punishment" I knew this staff member a long time and thought they would see it my way. They did but also banned me for language. Not swear words but the way I talked to another player. It was a friend I knew for over a year and was an adult like me, that doesn't matter. You treat everyone with respect. This player and I have talked in game since and are friends again. My point in this is that age is not an issue. Staff is not the issue. This is a well balanced server and staff does a good job keeping the peace. In fact I even apologized to both the player and staff that banned me. The real issue is players who do not feel sorry for what they do and join servers just to cause problems. The staff on EMC does a good job of keeping those type of players off of here. I am a part of GRIP, which has slowed since the anti Grief installation. G.R.I.P. is short for Griefed Refund of Item Project. Even with staff and anti grief we still serve a cause. Just recently a player was robbed of 12 God picks. We refunded him the 12 picks. Just because a player gets banned does not make him a bad player sometimes it's just bad decisions in the moment. 1 moment of rage got me banned. The other 99.99% of the time I have helped new players, gave away free R in triva's, gave away tools and gear to struggling players and much more. Honestly, I just wish some players would come back. No they were not banned, just chose to leave. I can think f 5 players right now I just wish I could chat with. Everyone deserves another chance. I applaud Staff for offering this.
Tilting at windmills again, Don Quixote? A ban is not "violence." A punch in the face is violence. Physical force is violence. A ban is nothing more than removing offenders from the place of offense, and until you can do that by physically kicking them in the tail via computer, the word "violence" has no place in this discussion. Period, end story, full stop, exit stage. (Yes, I found a new facepaw image just for this. A dubious honor indeed.) Regarding the topic at hand... I'm not big on forgiveness, honestly. Personality flaw of mine, I hold grudges more easily than I'd like. Still think this is a great idea. I'd be curious to hear some numbers on just how many "exiled" EMCers have opted to take advantage of the current amnesty and return.
Well, that isn't the case. What you're referring to is just "physical violence", which is "only" the top of the violence scale. What you're suggesting is that if parties are separated physically, say only connected through Internet, that violence can not happen. This is very, very far from truth - and I think this should be common sense. Violence scale starts with assuming and with neglecting others needs. You can easily find plenty of information about that on the 'Net. PS: We just can not live without ignorance and violence, but we can put some effort into reducing it.
As I wrote above, besides the experience on EMC, it comes from observing kids from my broader family and their friends and classmates as they play on private / family servers (vanilla, Divine RPG, TerraFirmaCraft), LAN parties and IRL. There are some 30 kids (age 8 and upwards) who more or less often play together. Main reasons for minor stealing and griefing (in no particular order) - jealousness, envy - ignorance, cluelessness - boredom, carelessness - "not my clan" - doesn't recognize the whole community / server as own group - retaliation, escalation of (non-physical) violence - retaliation, ' "they" have also stolen from me' - testing the limits, testing "what will happen if" The central questions when someone does it: - what to do to prevent further escalation, further violence - what is the best way to let them know that it is not acceptable - whether to keep them in the game / community or not, and, if yes then how to do it It helps if one knows how and why it happens. Exactly. It is not an accident and it is most often a culmination resulting from a spiral of violence. Some won't read it, some won't really understand it, some won't internalize it, some won't remember it while playing... Unfortunately, that hints and warnings in text form are not enough for a majority of the kids, especially those aged 8-13. Exactly. The kids lack care, they don't care for the community, they lack awareness. They need both a) to learn and acquire social competences and b) to recognize the community as their own group. And yes, this is the normality. Realizing that, I've tried to personally talk to each kid and tell them that it is really important not to steal nor grief. That did raise the awareness, but there was still a significant minority where it was not enough. Next, using examples of stealing and griefing, I tried to explain what happens and why - showing and explaining behavior of involved parties and how violence escalates. That did help. Alternatively, I talked to their parents and asked them for collaboration. Until now, I managed to avoid permanent bans completely ... and yes, it does require some effort. Of course, this is not directly practicable on a server like EMC. Other means are needed. I'm positive that it would be possible to achieve significant results with acceptable effort. IKR ... I've seen how senior moderators including Aikar personally handle minor stealing or griefing. But the system leaves too little space for doing more than just ban. Example, happened several times: One Enderchest is missing, I report it with a note "please, I'd like the person who took it to just return it." You can guess what has happened every single time - "it has been taken care of."
You see, even with something as small as this, if they let someone get away with it, they are going to keep doing it. Going "yeah you did this bad thing but don't do it again, now go away" just isn't teaching anyone that it's not allowed. When growing up younger kids need more firm control over what they do, as it can heavily influence them later on. If they are taught earlier on that if you break the rules of society you are going to be punished, then they are more likely to keep this lesson learned. As someone who joined at the age of 10 This is mostly incorrect. Kids will read the warnings, whether they choose to follow the rules that they are plainly presented is a different story. They are told that griefing or stealing will result in a ban, yet they are still younger kids, they still have the temptation to break the rules because "it's cool". It's not a fact that the warnings are being ignored, they aren't being listened to. People coming on to the server just to grief etc. aren't going to care about the rules either, so they don't fit into this category, and a large percent of the people who do this are the younger kids, because they think that it's "fun" to cause issues for others, because they have yet to be taught anything about actual punishment in real life. Also your age group is far too wide for your point that you are trying to make. 8-13 is not an accurate representation. In most cases, people over the age of 11 are far less likely to act in the exact same way as someone who is 8-10 years old. This can come from changing school groups indicating some change in maturity, or just growing up in general.
AFAICS, noone is suggesting that rule breakers should just get away with it. You can read above what I'm suggesting as a good course of action with minor stealing or griefing. This is important, but it's not enough. The lesson is not complete until they understand the reason behind the rules and why not to do wrong even if they won't be caught, even if they can expect to "get away with it." I've edited my posting above to make it more clear. Some will not read (mostly the younger). Some will not completely understand. Etc. I'm not going into detail how different age groups have different needs. We're far from that here... That's not so simple. The path from reading "do not steal" to really understanding why and internalizing it is not a short one. This discussion is not about that minority. It is about how to keep members who do want to play and be part of the community, but need a bit more input and effort before they can resist certain temptations.
Minor incidents lead up to bigger ones, breaking the rules is breaking the rules. I can't go on EMC and only hack a little bit and not be dealt with differently to someone who has been hacking for a while. Most people understand the reasoning behind the rules, even these little kids you want to mention, yet you seem to think that they don't know what they are doing is wrong, even when they know they can get away with it. People who grief/steal KNOW they are doing wrong (most of the time) and can expect to be punished for it, giving them a smaller punishment because they broke a rule in a slightly less harmful way than someone else is not going to teach them anything, they're just going to think they can do what they did before again. This is because they received that smaller punishment. If you don't read the rules about griefing/stealing or any other rules, then it's no one else's fault that you messed up and got banned, the rules clearly state what will happen if they don't follow them. If they chose not to read the rules then tough luck, they are posted everywhere. If you don't understand the rules, then asking someone is what you do. The staff and the players in general on the server are more than likely to know the answer to a new player's question, if they don't ask about something they don't understand, they aren't helping themselves on the server at all. If you are going to reference age groups, please provide evidence that your facts have solid proof behind them. It's pretty easy to understand why you don't steal things from people, or break their things, most kids from before they start going to school are taught that it is not OK to ever steal someone else's possessions and that breaking other people's items on purpose is also not OK. You are basically saying that this is the first time that these kids have been taught this rule, which comes from everyday life. You said it yourself, this is not about that minority I mentioned, you are correct. Yet the age group you chose to identify "8-13" correlates strongly WITH that minority. People between the age of "8-13" are for more likely to be the people who are going around servers getting themselves banned because that's just what younger people do. If you want to talk about people who want to stay on the server and be part of the community, then those people need to read the rules, understand the very basic concept behind the rules, most of which play into everyday life and are easy to understand for nearly every person, even in this age group and actually not BREAK the rules. If someone is not able to resist certain temptations as you say, then this type of server is not for them until they can resist those temptations. Once they have learned the basic rules of a server and how to actually follow these rules, then they can be a part of the community that we want on EMC, which is why people who don't follow the rules or give in to those temptations are removed from the community.
