Huehuehue. I'm from the UK: and like many British people, I'm rather anti-European Union. I support the view of many of the UK's political parties (most of which are using the 'we'll get the UK out of the EU!' promise in the 2015 general election) that want to leave the European Union (UKIP, however, is not one of them). I was already anti-EU before they asked my country to pay up £1.something billion, but that was the last straw I dislike them wanting open borders between European countries, I don't like their idea of 'The United States of Europe', and I don't like them wanting to stick their noses into other country's business and such. I also dislike the Euro because of how unstable it seems to be - and I'm glad the UK didn't want the EU's currency when we joined back in the 70's. They also seem to have let immigration get out of control - which is something I dislike. I live in a pretty anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, and anti-Polish area (where the 'local' mosque gets vandalized and Jewish gravestones are kicked and bricked, and Polish people get bullied at schools...), so that may be where this hate of immigration comes from - but there is a genuine problem in this country with religious extremism coming from the people who have moved from the Middle East. I've seen two posters up in Liverpool before (and have heard of it happening in Birmingham and London) saying 'this area is under Sharia law' and similar things - like, what? If you want my country to be like yours, why did you move here in the first place? I agree with everything you said /End Hardline anti-EU post.
Europe has brought some great concepts and thinkers to the world. Yet, governments are not living up to the ideals the continent is so proud of. Few examples are: German weapon industry (and possibly others) delivering to Saudi Arabia, no immigration policy for north Africa (let 'em sink on the Mediterranean), unemployment in southern Europe, social and tax inequality,... In that respect the 'Peace Nobel Price' for the European Union in 2012 was as ridiculous as the one for Obama in 2009. As I see the global importance fading from Europe in the next few decades, the continent could very well just focus on the internal problems. Give room for countries to live up to the standards of equality and human rights they stand for. Who wants to be #1 World's Exporter when that means to deliver weapons to a totalitarian, fundamental and inhuman regime? A word about immigration: The pressure on the outer European boarders is very high. People flee through half the African continent to then enter an unseaworthy boat, leaving everything behind and many die. It is scandalous that there is no way for refugees arriving at the coasts of Northern Africa to legally immigrate to the European Union. They are not able to request asylum from Tunis, Cairo or Algiers. The EU is sticking to the official rules: Who finds the refugees has to take them. That means, Italy has to take all of them, because the boats arrive there. The problem is so big that Italy cannot manage it on it's own. But the European Union and other member states (>>UK<< yes, you are still a member) do nothing. I think it would be good for Europe and the Europeans to solve this problem in a humane way . Last point: Nationalism It is coming to live again in Europe. France had some experiences with the right winged Le Penn party, the Netherlands with Wilders, Swiss (not EU, but Europe) recently had a referendum against inner European immigration, and so on. I think it is a step backwards. If you haven't guessed so already, I am from Europe
It needs to be said that the £1.7 billion requested by the EU was due to an error in data and calculations; the UK was meant to have paid it before, the demand wasn't the so-called 'Eurocrats' being spiteful, it was to rectify a mistake. That £1.7 billion sent to the EU does not necessarily mean a complete outward transfer of resources - keep in mind that in return for that money the UK is getting free trade, the single market, the criminal return/extradition scheme, millions of jobs, free movement of people, goods, labour and capital, the policy collaboration, and spending on the EU's many projects within the UK. Even the money going to Romania and Eastern Europe will serve to build up a group of trade partners which will benefit the UK in the long-term. On the topic of open borders, I believe it is absolutely necessary. Millions have been able to do business in the UK as a result of it, and millions in the UK have been able to do business elsewhere. It hugely expands markets for tourism and travel. Officially, the EU itself does not want European federalism. There are certain groups in the European Parliament who do, but if you don't want federalism, take it up with them, not the EU. I don't see you trying to disband the British government because of UKIP. When you speak of the EU 'poking their noses into the business of other countries', there's something you've missed; what goes on in the member states is their business. If you have an issue with a specific way the EU is behaving, talk to your MEP about it. The Euro isn't perfect, and personally I'd prefer a cryptocurrency (but that's a pipe dream) but nevertheless, I firmly believe in idea, and the need to break down borders, and that includes currency. If the UK were to adopt the Euro, trade between the UK and the European continent would be a LOT easier. I strongly disagree immigration is 'out of control'. I adamantly oppose the attempted interference by right-wing newspapers like the Daily Mail and the Express who try to justify xenophobia and skew and unbalance the debate. What they don't tell you is that immigration provides a net gain to the economy, that immigrants are more likely to be of working age of native Brits, that if all the immigrants were 'sent home' tomorrow, the NHS and many vital public services would implode, that we now live in an interdependent world and to stop people going into a country which we happen to belong to just because of where they live or were born is ridiculous. I do believe in controlling immigration, but not by controlling numbers - we need to ensure immigrants are equipped with the skills necessary to participate in the UK, but we should not expect more of them than what we expect of natives. The xenophobia and racism you describe is the result of economic inequality. In unequal societies struck by austerity, such as the UK, racial tension is higher, as bigots use the angst of working class communities to attack those of other races and creeds. It is not the result of higher immigration. Here's a blogger whose stuff you should read through if you want to learn more.
And if the Euro crashes again? Our economy becomes even worse than is? Swapping to the Euro is crazy and stupid to say the least. The EU overprice the Euro and it ruins the economy. When the Germans swapped to it they lost economical power. Somewhere (can't remember where, Google it.) said that in 2030 the UK will overtake Germany and become the second biggest economy in the world (USA being top). If the Germans are to swap back to the Franks then we have no chance.
Haha, sorry but are you serious? UK second biggest after USA? What about China, India, Mexico, Brazil, Turkey, Japan, even Poland? Franc was the currency in...France. Franken are the currency in Swiss and German was DM before.
I only spoke about trade - I acknowledge the current organisational problems and the challenges they pose, but I believe the UK should still strive to join for the trade benefits. What I would propose to solve the problem of the Euro's instability would be fiscal union between the Euro area countries. Every country using the Euro would not have their own treasuries/exchequers, but would pool them together, with a single national debt, with common tax and spending policies. Because a lot of currency speculation is based on national debt, having a single national debt for the currency, instead of 18, simplifies market proceedings a lot, therefore making the Euro more stable. Also that prediction about the UK overtaking Germany is bullshit. The US would not be top in 2030, it'd be China, with India hot on its heels. The UK has been in a power decline since the fall of the British Empire, they ain't overtaking anyone. Except France from time to time. Wherever you read that, it's speculative drivel.
See, that's where our opinions diverge. I say, let's focus on our roots of enlightenment and human rights and build our reputation on that. If it costs a few points in the global whatever ranking, who cares?
Hey we just stick our guns in your faces, you guys stick your politicians in our economics. Two different spectrum here. I am not pro US intervention in everyone's violent interests, but it is (IMO) far better than an entity that has no authority in external business' telling those businesses what to do.
Would be really interested where this comes from. Can you give an example of a Eurpean politician trying to influence the US economy? Edit: Too many other points, but just in short: Governments are not businesses. And I also don't see how you can value violent interests so high... Edit edit: Consequentially, this is what I can imagine very well to happen: Because of the current, maybe lasting weakness of Europe, the USA will loose interest in Europe and it will be seeking for more powerful allies. Maybe Brazil or India. Not China and not Japan, that I would predict. However, also the US will not go unchallenged in the next 50 years. The Japanese and the Mexicans will strive further too and probably will become rather powerful. As well as Turkey and some others. We might even have a situation Germany, Poland and Russia in an allience,..., who knows.
I don't value violent interests, but I would rather the country I live in fight genocide instead of Google. Lesser of two evils. My economic beliefs are very hands off, minus human rights requirements. I can barely tolerate my own ridiculous government meddling with business and vice versa, so when an entity that has no initially justifiable grounds in meddling starts demanding, like hell I am going to feel anything but negative about it.
From what I've read, it seems Germany gets to make all the decisions and Greece is being strangled with debt. I like the concept of the Euro, but from my limited knowledge, it seems like the more powerful countries do not always act in the best interest of the weaker ones. IMHO, Greece should have been allowed to write off part of its debt and have been given extremely low interest loans. But I could be wrong, all I know is from reading a few news articles. They could be biased and I have no first hand knowledge.
Ok, that sounds like the TTIP agreement between Europe and US... As far as I know is the EU trying to enforce EU right for companies like Google that are doing business in >Europe<. They are not interfering with the business Google has in the USA or elsewhere. I think it is legitimate that a government enforces the local rights on an otherwise globally operating company.
I agree with this, I think any political entity has local rights in global "issues" for lack of a better word. But splitting Google up like they proposed is not possible locally, it would have to be global. They want the end product, but they want it their way, and they want to change it for everyone. If they don't want the current product, then they can go get something else in this setting, because the change required would be global. I believe in a free internet, but I don't believe that search engines should have to be essentially charities. If the EU wants a search engine that has no commercial interests, then I think they should make their own.
We like to think we're not though Mhm hm. Germany makes pretty much all of the decisions (they seem to be using it as a way to pay off their debts to the US, UK and Russia (?) for WWII- and have already used it to pay off their WWI debt), Greece gets strangled with debt constantly because of the Euro, and England and Wales want to leave all the time (and asks the UK's other member nations *cough* Scotland *cough* to stay in their own union... ). The EU also like to sit back and watch as Russia tries to gain control of Ukraine - and the Ukrainians revolted against their own government so they could join the bloody thing. The least they could do is lend a helping hand instead of placing sanctions on Russia at the request of the UK. Obviously what happens in the EU's member states is their business - I don't have a problem with that, because that's only logical. Its when they stick their noses in other nation's businesses is when it annoys me. I know about that. I live in one of the poorest regions of the UK (which also means one of the poorest regions in Europe) - I know from first hand experience what it is that drives the people here to be racist. Also, on the immigration thing: I don't know if its the same in Northern Ireland, but there are immigrants everywhere in England, at least. Many of them haven't even come here legally - and quite a lot of them are living off dole money in council houses that are falling apart (that isn't to say that the natives of England aren't also doing the same thing). It's uncontrolled (the UK also has pretty lax airport security, which doesn't help at all. Its like we're begging for a terrorist attack similar to 7/7). Another reason why I want to leave the EU: I want the death penalty back in the UK. I don't know about you, but I don't like the idea of paying for a convicted child abuser/serial killer to carry on living. Its much easier to go buy a rope from B&Q for a quid and hang them. (Obviously, we wouldn't hang them, and we certainly wouldn't do it with a £1 rope >.>) Take that little girl who was killed in 2012 (April Jones?) in a Welsh town. Mark Bridger, her killer, cut her up (I don't remember the exact details) in his house and pleaded not guilty. He was guilty and has life in prison. I don't want to pay for him to carry on living. I want him to die, preferably in the same way he killed that innocent 5 year old girl.
Why only US, UK and Russia? What about France? There is debt as well! What I don't get is, why Germany is now using Greece to pay their depth? Germany had tremendous economic success in the last 60 and the last 10 years. It doesn't seem to have to leeche Greece. Who tells you that? In this case UK and EU sit in the same boat. UK also avoids the open conflict with Russia and wouldn't be able to carry it out if it would come to a confrontation. But as usual, UK government uses a much harsher/aggressive tone towards foreign powers than their mainland counterparts.
Interesting discussion so far. Well, my 2 cents... I'm in favor of the principle but quite anti-EU. In my opinion the EU in its current state causes more harm than some actual good improvements. Some of that harm might be smaller scaled; but as you know: many smaller things (problems) make one larger issue. IMO the EU tries to overregulate, which I consider rather narrow minded. Instead of looking at already existing models it seems to me as if people are trying to re-invent the wheel. Example: the US. It seems to me as if the US knows exactly that you cannot totally regulate a whole continent. There are too many differences in too many regions. Sure; some global laws should be kept in place and enforced, but others should be handled on a smaller level. Thus you have different laws in different states. The EU otoh. tries to reverse that process. More and more regulation is done by Brussels which overrules that of individual countries. And some of those regulations are a plain out disaster. For the simple reason that they will work in one country, but not in the other. A brilliant example is the law which made it illegal for dead livestock (dead cows, pigs, etc.) to be left uncovered. They needed to be covered before pickup. Made perfect sense in most (residential) parts of Holland, Germany, etc. The farmers in Southern France however had left their dead lifestock uncovered for centuries and that helped to keep predator birds in check. Those birds basically fed on those animal remains. The moment this became law those birds started to look for other food sources. Resulting in a lot of farmers who ran into trouble because those birds now started to attack their livestock. Ironically those birds were also a protected species under European law. Sheer brilliance (yes, that's a small bit of sarcasm). In some cases they're trying to overregulate things. And that really works against them. And you see more examples of these absurd rules all over the place. Another major problem which I have with the EU is their, in my opinion, way unhealthy urge for expansion. After the second world war there were regulations put in place which were intended to regulate such expansion. Sure, mostly with the Soviet Union in mind, but still... Seems that those rules are only important if they apply to the "bad guys" because right now we're almost near the Russian border. The only nation / union which has done a major expansion since the second world war is the EU. And I think it's a very scary / troubling development. And keep well in mind: not always in a fair democratic manner either. In Holland we had 2 referenda which asked the people if we should join the EU. The first was a massive no. Instead of respecting the outcome the politicians decided that the population had been "misinformed" thus a huge media campaign started, soon followed by a 2nd referendum. Once again the outcome was a massive no. So a few months later Holland became part of the EU. Democracy at its finest indeed (another sneer ). Which is another thing to keep in mind; a lot of the modern warfare isn't so much done with armies these days, but with money. Economic warfare can sometimes weigh a lot heavier. And in my opinion that's exactly what's been happening lately. Take the current conflict with Ukraine. The main reason they're tempted to join the EU is because the EU has promised them a lot of money. Just read that a massive loan is soon to be approved; "only" 1.8 billion. Money talks, it's as simple as that. But all that expansion also comes at a heavy price. There was once a time where the Euro would easily outweigh the Dollar, but that tide is changing, pretty rapidly even. The whole idea and motivation behind the EU is IMO good, but the way it's being executed leaves a lot to desire. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if we'll even see the EU collapse on itself not too long from now.
+1 for the death penalty. I may not live in Europe, but I still don't want them running around and ruining my homelands like the Euro.
Man I need to write one enormous quote-answer post whenever i get my hands on a computer. I've seen so many replies I just cannot agree with The one and only solution for the world is to unite under the flag of LittleLand!
Because it was about 1AM when I wrote that and I was tired. Nobody tells me that, and I said nothing about Germany using Greece to pay off their debts.
I'm from Australia, so a long way away from Europe, but I'll give my opinion anyway From my perspective, the EU is quite good. Nowhere else in the world is there so much military, economical and political cooperation. As a tourist, the transport (mainly railway) network is amazing and its so easy to travel between countries. I know there are some issues regarding immigration and whatever. Apparently someone from Australia applying for a job in the UK has to do an English language test where as someone from Poland wouldn't have to... I don't really know enough to say much more than this, but to me it doesn't seem too bad.
