M4nic_M1ner's world of PR

Well, the issue is, he's brought up very similar arguments over time in past arguments in which he was told in the nicest ways we can, our views. Unfortunately, it seems as if those ways weren't working with him as they do other people, including staff when we feel we are wrong about something. Does it make him bad for doing it, no. However, at some point repeating the same thing over and over after you were told something other than what you wanted to hear is very tedious and unneeded. It almost is equal to spam at some point, however, instead of removing his posts, as a lot of admin/mods would do on almost any other community server, we've taken our time to continually answer him the same answers we have multiple times.

Silken, I know you've become upset you didn't get chosen as moderator, as you told me in your long message...and it seems that your entire attitude towards us has changed immediately after you weren't chosen with the last "batch" of mods. I'm sorry you've decided to go that route and we've seen it in the past and have lost good players (which we do consider you) due to a simple "anger" of not being chosen as a staff member.

I'd like to kindly ask that you don't place words in our mouths anymore after your previous post. We don't dislike his opinion, though we may not always agree with it. Saying we don't like it, is just wrong. We've never said he's un-caring. Clearly he cares and is passionate or he wouldn't put time into his posts as he does.

Thank you for your respect on this matter.

So quick question, so me using the word 'complain' is not comparable in any sense when the post that was being brought up was comparing a simple 'stern warning' to 'North Korea shooting its citizens'? If you wish to make some kind of a point, maybe you should remove the blind eye to the evidence and notice that the aggression before the reply.

Also, the nice deeds that M4nic does in game are noticed, and nothing is stopping anyone from nominating him, and he may have already been nominated. It also will not stop him from being chosen by the staff in the final stage. Some people seem to believe that we do not try our best to do things fair, but if M4nic came across the board and he really did seem like he was the best choice out of the nominations, then he will get it. He does help players, and that's great. But being nice in game then comparing EMC to North Korea shooting its citizens who want to leave, that kind of attitude and harsh comparison does seem to cancel out some of those nice deeds in the eyes of those that work hard every day to make this game as fun as possible.

The point I was making was in relation to this post made by M4nic, and the point the brought up regarding "complaining".

If you feel you have a problem not just because someone disagrees with you, but you feel their comments are damaging to EMC then by all mean's feel free to do something about that. But making someone out to be a complainer for voicing there opinion because they disagree with the threat of ppl being banned is very short sighted and only lead's to disharmony in the thread.

It saddens me to hear you say that, it just shows to me how wrong you are and how little you know me, and after all I

have said to you in private about this you still do not get my point. However there is no point in bringing up the past

as you made your self very clear.

As for putting words in your mouth I doubt that could ever happen you have your own and very strong opinions on

how EMC should be run and that is fine, it is your server, your business, and you can run it how you like.

I think where we may have got things a little wrong was thinking that we actually had a say in how things where run

and clearly we where very wrong.

I apologise to anyone here who may see my comments as complaining or that you felt I was putting words in there

mouth's in anyway shape or form.

I have never felt in anyway that I had that kind of influence, not sure quite how to take that but I will chose to take it

as a complement as I am sure you mean well by it.

You said 'your self' ...

That's for emphasis..

Hey people, life is complicated.

Here, I'm (not?) comparing EMC with NK, but saying how EMC is different than NK.
(* joke * in that one point ... * joke *)
I'm taking back that comparison so far as it is one.
What I actually wanted to say is, if you threaten the people, they will tend to leave,
so you better don't threaten people. You have a nice idea and kind of contest,
so it is not necessary nor good to mention punishments along with it. (IMO)

So, what are the good / best things about EMC?
* Quite many quality players making the spirit of the community
* Stable service, high uptime
* Good basic rules
* Good Terms of Service
* Keeping up manners and civilized communication
* Active maintenance and programming
* Active moderators, willing to help
* Very nice additional features - teleports, protection system, shops, ...
* Stable, nice forum, quite easy to use
* Quite high freedom of thought and expressing opinion

There are several levels of disagree, like ...
- not even notice, take things for granted (kids / lack of experience and understanding)
- notice that something is not feeling comfortable, but not know what it actually is
- think that some things are not right, but unable to connect causes and effects
- know what's wrong (kind of), but unable to explain / express and give examples and counter-examples
- know what's wrong and able to explain
- understand why it is the way it is (or at least to distinct level)
- understand what change is possible and/or needed
- know how things can change

About the population ... there's hope that it will rise.

You're right, there are only few basic things / opinions I mention in one way or the other in several threads - simply because there are only few aspects where (I have strong opinion that) EMC can improve.

I'm sorry for every bit that was too harsh and/or insulting. I sometimes think "hey people, how don't you see that" ... but I should not assume too much.

I know, being staff is not fun time, but hard time, I hope the valuable experience and personal satisfaction are worth the effort for each staff member. I'm thankful or that work. But the personal effort and hard work do not reduce the responsibility that you have.

Of course - I would even say that trying to appease everyone is a wrong way leading only to frustration.

Actually only very few things - one of them is (IMO) easily improvable PR style.

Regarding the original topic - ban threats:
- it's not favorable style for mature / adult members
- it is not favorable style for that 98% (I hope)
- it's also not favorable style for dealing with kids generally
- you say it is about the right tone and style for dealing with "kids online" ... well I'm not sure about that, I never really tried, but my guts tells me different.

Don't worry, I won't think that you're sending me away.
And if I don't have to worry about life of myself and my family - than to stay and ... contribute is the right thing to do. Isn't it?

-> There

Love & Peace

Hey Manic,

Just incase you missed my post above regarding this statement, we do have quite a bit of experience in this field, not only from here but our past communities:

Again, he wasn't being shot down, but explained why we do things how we do. We know that the adult players already (hopefully) know they shouldn't do shady things and will get banned for them. However, as numerous people already said, there are a lot of younger players who need to hear it in a certain way in order to properly understand it.

I know the argument from M4nic on this will be: "You have to give them a chance before you say that." Which I agree with, and we have. Our rules used to be less specific on things and we constantly got: "Your rules never said I would get banned for doing (insert rules they broke)." So, we ask that you please trust our combined experience in how we do things here and know we take time and thought in our processes.

Surely it is a warning, not a threat? It is also stated as a rule, without it stated there can be loopholes and getting out of wrongdoings.
There will always be people who exploit this kind of thing.



Also the staff must be good at ddecisions. And have a lot of experience, 60k+ members don't go to Crappy servers.
EDIT: just read Iccs post >.> practically the same

I have not mentioned Moderators here, I believe that was Icc who tried to bring that up.

I also believe my original post here was how I felt M4nic was being considered as a complainer, when all he was doing was pointing out something he felt strong about. It may not have been the intent to do so but I have seen this on other occasions.

I do agree that some points of view can be or appear to be negative when repeatedly brought up by the same player, an example of that is the private conversation I had with Icc over how I felt the recent moderators where chosen and many others who have done a lot for EMC where not just ignored but had there applications destroyed and where required to fill them in yet again.

My point was, that other ppl who have done a lot for EMC where not even considered and discarded without much if any consideration.

I do not have a crystal ball and EMC is not a transparent business so no one really knows outside of staff how this process is done.

Just for the record I was not including myself in that list.

I also moved on from that, however I see that other ppl have not, and still feel bitter over it to the point that they feel the need to continually bring up this subject.

I backed away from EMC not because of this, but because every conversation I was having on the forums and in private was being tracked and viewed by ICC and other staff.

This being brought up yet again just reinforces that point and is a reminder to me that I should just keep away from EMC.

Just for the record, no staff member, including admins are able to view forum PMs, and even if we could, I very much doubt we would use this power.

The staff will never go though any private conversation without reason, and cannot and will not check forum PMs without being invited to them.

Yes Jack off course not, and just one more thing a private conversation is just that private. There is no reason for anyone to go through it at all. When they do it is a breach of trust.

So...I'm not trying to start anything but why did this suddenly turn from a thread about the Player Appreciation feedback to an argument about being a moderator? >.>

I don't see why that needed to be made public? But that's just me. I'll go back to my hole now.

Well, it appears that everything that was to be said in this was said, and all sides understood each other as much as they could. Since it was getting derailed quite a bit, that's a sign for this to be closed up. Good conversations, EMC.

Manic, I enjoyed that video.

I want to say something, and please do not take it the wrong way. Let's say in this instance that the wording on the staff "warning" was needed to be changed. Do you think posting as harshly as you did is as productive as maybe more politely privately contacting Jack, or another staff member about rewording it?

My point being, I see your point, but if you just went over your post that pointed the wording out, could you not find a few instances where it could have been worded differently? Omitting certain comparisons? A simple "that wording seems a little harsh, maybe tone it down?" Would have yielded a more positive response from the staff and others, rather than searching for clever analogies to relate such warnings to obvious extremes.

Summary; if I were to say that wording could do with a change, would you not agree that yours could have afforded it at as well?

It seems that we're getting to know each other better: I've just expected that response (from you)
You're right, of course.
The reach for more heavy wording and comparisons, exaggeration (or shouting etc.) can mean that the person doesn't feel that the message will be understood or acted upon otherwise. It is a kind of violence.
I need to stick to nonviolent communication that I'm promoting
It helps to reword the received message, like "IIUC, you're saying that if I'm complaining about the style of communication / wording / PR, I should better polish my own - and expect better response overall"