Telling from my 7 months of EMC experience, there is equal portion of your "average joes" among diamond supporters as among non-diamond population. My first grinder was blown to pieces with TNT. I think I don't need to tell you from which rank was that "supporter". With what intention and sense? except that TNT is a tool in the first place, not a weapon.
Victory by Typo! I win! If only it were that simple, right? EDIT: I'm not saying Diamond supporters are immune to being jerks and griefers, but it does put TNT behind a paywall, essentially, and you can't tell me that doing so doesn't curb a healthy chunk of potential incidents. There's a vast difference between somebody deciding to sign up, fork over $20, and blow stuff up, and the large population of "freeps." For the record, I do realize that most of EMC is basically decent, and we're talking about maybe %2 of a population. Um... "any" intention and sense? I kinda wish TNT detonations were disabled, but I guess that'd stop creepers and desert-temple traps as well. I think EMC did right by making TNT restricted to Diamond.
Judging by what I've seen on a couple of PvP servers that my grandchidren sometimes go on, a great deal - especially near (relatively speaking) to spawns eg LLO
Because 2% of diamond supporters is far smaller number than 2% of EMC, griefing with TNT is significantly reduced with factor <number of active diamond supporters> : <active EMC population>. That's obvious, but that is still not a valid argument for giving TNT use only to diamond supporters. Would you deprive any part of EMC population of use of a tool because 2% of them are potential griefers? I think this is the right question - whether to ban TNT completely. If the dangers of TNT really, I mean really far outweigh its use as a tool, well then yes. I don't like the imagination that (diamond) supporters are somehow "higher class" or "better people." See, a part of them is even paying money with the intention to have in-game advantage over their playmates.
You want to talk griefing tools? The live map is the biggest griefing tool in the empire. Most people buy iron supporter because of it (like myself). For instance, Yamanqui made a thread stating how his base that was 40,000 blocks away from spawn was griefed. Do you think that would have happened without the live map? Now I'm not saying we should ban the live map, but access to TNT also comes with more fun for the entire community (people actually use TNT for non-malicious activities such as spleefing, I know I would). Just like the live map helps people when they are lost or can be used to help build structures. We are punishing everyone because say 2% of the community wants to grief with TNT, which they will do anyway with pickaxes and shovels. And why are we worried about our buildings, we have a protected residence. People who build structures in the wild know the risks. I assume the LLO and other wilderness communities know those risks. I myself have massive investsments in the wild (probably 100k of rupees invested in a single farm) and personally I don't think TNT or no TNT will make a difference once it is discovered. Your argument is null and void!
Obvious cop-out is obvious? I know the risks, most people with two brain cells to rub together do. I've been considering Iron myself for this very reason. But we're not discussing the livemap here, we're discussing whether a "perk" currently available only to Diamond supporters - the current highest supporting level in EMC - should be made accessible to everyone with the changes 1.5 is making, via minecarts, hoppers, dispensers, etc. I've already said my piece on that - I do not support giving TNT abilities to anyone, but if it must be limited, keep it limited to the highest level as it is currently. Five minutes with a lava bucket, lighter, and Eff V pick still can't equal the damage I (or anyone else) could do with five minutes of TNT access. My argument is neither null, nor void, and I dare you to prove me wrong on that point. Some things you can patch up and repair from. A giant shattered crater ain't one of them.
In this particular case (that is, with regard to TNT ONLY)? Absolutely. If you'd stop chopping my posts up "Faux News"-style, you'd see that. But I'm not speaking out for a revolution on the status-quo - Diamond users already get TNT privilege. I am not saying revoke those privileges - just don't expand them. You don't have to like my opinion, but stop trying to chop it up into tiny bits to make me look like a fool.
Of course we aren't talking about the live map here, you seemed to miss the whole second part of the paragraph which was about TNT. I was making the analogy that even though the live map is used for griefing, it would be stupid to remove it because it is also useful. Similar to how even though TNT can be used for griefing, it is also a useful tool and actually FUN to have (yes, fun). Essentially, banning TNT is just flat out, not worth it. And we are limiting that fun because of people that build things in dangerous areas. Do not butcher my paragraphs or accuse me of taking the easy way out. It is true that TNT does more widespread damage to places otherwise deemed too unimportant to griefers (a griefer is not going to destroy every little block of cobblestone). But the valuable blocks, unlocked chests, and anything standing in their way, will ultimately be annihilated regardless of TNT.
Every Supporter perk: Map Hide, Reserved Slots, Daily Bonus, and extra residences and so on are in EMC's direct control. TNT is not. Rather than go to all the trouble of trying to preserve it as a perk solely for Diamonds by disabling these new features for others, I expect EMC will add something else, like Flying in Utopia or just let it go. I don't see the new features as any more of a problem than Flint and Steel or Lava in terms of griefing and if I were a Diamond, I don't think I would see it as losing a perk. I see it as having a lot of potential for new fun for everyone. They can also log it as they do other blocks, if they aren't already, and deal with TNT troublemakers as they come. It will still be a valuable perk, especially in Town, since placing TNT will be easier than the alternative ways of setting it off. It's cost prohibitive now and likely to become even more expensive because of these changes so I don't expect use to become too common anyway.
I didn't miss that point at all, I just regard them as two completely separate entities. The livemap is its own tool with its own unique advantages and drawbacks, and I see no parellel relevant to this topic between it and TNT. I apologize if you thought I was butchering your quote - particularly as I'm getting irritated with M4nic_M1ner for doing so with mine. It was not my intent. That said... well, if you build your spleef arenas with TNT detonation in mind, I won't take that away from you. In-town use is restricted per residence and doesn't concern me nearly as much as what unrestricted use in the wild could do. Again, those are two distinct issues in my mind. I acknowledge there are existing risks for building in the wilderness, which was my choice to do in the first place, but I'd rather not make things any easier for the destructive members of this community. Primed TNT stacks in a dispenser set on a short redstone repeating-timer would absolutely be worse than some idiot with a pick, lighter, and lava. The difference is negligible in terms of items of value being lost, yes. I'd say building in the wild with any mass amount of "valuable" block (gold, diamond, lapis, or god help you emerald) is foolish in its own right, but that's the builder's risk to take. In terms of raw structural damage though... you can't burn down a netherbrick mansion or a sandstone villa, but with some strategically placed dynamite there'd be nothing left worth trying to rebuild. EDIT: I'm sorry for clipping your quote this way, but I just want to point out as well: Logged TNT use might result in a ban of the offender, but it'll be next to no consolation for the person whose build is now a crater.
I fail to understand how you don't see the parallel. They are both useful and valuable tools. They are both incredibly dangerous and are/would be used for griefing heavily. And yet no one wants to take out the live map (this has nothing to do with the live map). My point is that we should not ban a useful and entertaining tool such as TNT because it is just not worth it. Similar to how the live map is not removed because it is also useful. By banning TNT, you are preventing all of the fun and utility that comes along with it. This is so very similar to the live map, the primary tool for griefers on EMC. On your second point, I can't seem to wrap my head around this. Being more of a industrial, secret-base kind of guy, I fail to see why anyone would build a netherbrick mansion or sandstone villa in the wilderness. That seems "foolish in its own right, but that's the builder's risk to take" since we have a protected residence. All of the structures that I build are purely about the valuable blocks and the unlocked chests and are there only because I can't build them on my residence (wild farms). Things like pistons, unlocked chests, redstone circuitry, and enchanting platforms would be my biggest concern. The rest means nothing to me and is merely an hour or so of block placing.
TNT should stay as a diamond perk. A good number of new members barely listen to the guide, so why should we trust them with TNT? They are very strict when it comes to TNT, as seen in: Can you imagine how many TNT traps there would be? How terrible the wild would look? And especially with the new redstone update, how easy it would be to use it inappropriately in town? The server performance would drop just because of logging it all, let alone it blowing up. Notice how people banned for using TNT maliciously cant even appeal? It would create many more problems than its worth. Sure, TNT is fun every once in a while. But if everyone could use it, there would be more times where its just a pain.
Griefing isn't fun for the griefed regardless of the technique used. It will be a problem regardless of what happens with TNT. I've never been impressed with TNT as a block remover. Given the relative cost and simplicity of something like a lava pillar, I doubt if it will be a problem if it's allowed in the ways that are being introduced. I wouldn't bother with it and I doubt if some lowlife will go to the trouble either when they have simpler, more common tools available. Regardless of our differing opinions on TNT griefing, I expect that EMC will take the path of least resistance and try to moderate it rather than restrict it with code.
Well if JustinGuy has already done it I guess it is hopeless. I suppose I will auction off the rest of my TNT. Personally I can't see how it would be abused in town especially with a TNT flag. But yeah, the wild would look worse, but is that really too terrible a price to pay? It would most certainly NOT be more pain than it's worth.
Parallel relevant to the topic at hand. Yes, the Livemap can also be used by griefers. Yes, by itself it is "just a tool." The discussion at hand however, pertains to changes made by 1.5 that would enable a severely destructive block for every user on the server, and if/how/why it should be enabled. The livemap in this case is a straw man, and not relevant to this thread. "Different strokes for different folks," I guess. Explain to the folks at LLO, or MrLegit's Wild Reach camps how "it's just an hour or so of block placing." From your post, I surmise that TNT attacks on your bases would be making a cave into a bigger cave, or blasting apart a tunnel. In that case, no, the changes wouldn't be as much of a threat to you. On the other end of the scale, you have people like myself and those in the above camps who build structures out in the open. YES THIS IS ALREADY RISKY, I'm not arguing that point! We like being able to make use of the landscape. A 60x60 (or 120x120 Utopia) plot of flat, plain dirt, is nothing at all like finding an open ravine to build a dwarven city in, or a towering hilltop on which to construct your fortress. The town is a mismatched collection of buildings by hundreds of people with vastly different tastes (or, none at all), and can't really be compared to an endless expanse of natural landscape to work with. You don't see the value in building on that? Alright, I can accept that. The bottom line, which I have been trying to point out and reiterate since my first post is, I don't want to make things any easier for people already determined to ruin the game for others. Building in the wild has enough risks on its own already. Livemap exposure, unprotected areas, griefers with flint/steel and lava, Xrayers, chest thieves. Can you really tell me you'd be in favor of adding unrestricted TNT use to that list?
I do think that it should be ok for supporters to place in town though, but not use, as long as someone has a tnt place flag (they could make that in the future). Reason that i think that free members shouldnt get it, is because a lot of new players would freak out if someone placed it on their res. Make it a one time thing, like you buy iron, then set /res set tnt place true, then could drop the supportership if you really wanted to. /end idea-ramble lol
Then I hereby dedicate this post to you. It's clear we have two very different perspectives on this and aren't going to agree at all.
Well now, I suppose I wasn't too familiar with the 1.5 update I knew the principal but hadn't seen it in action. Wow.
