[Discussion] TNT Duping/Primed TNT Duping being allowed on EMC

Discussion in 'General Minecraft Discussion' started by Extendingskys, Feb 17, 2021.

  1. Okay thank you, that’s the answer I was looking for. Although preferably also confirmed by the word of a moderator or SS. Although since you’re build team does that count? Idk what power you have as a build team member.
  2. If you indeed are in need of a TNT quarry, try making one where the player can "AFK" / place TNT blocks with a weight on the keyboard (Review AFK rules, before making this).

    Otherwise, I would just recommend getting a group of friends to mine resources with you, or have a steady flow of income where you can hire people/per hour to mine for you. For example, Azoundria has (maybe had?) a nice quarry system where you could work for the hour and sell your resources.

    You shouldn't need to try to change the box (of rules) when you can think outside the box, to accomplish whatever you want to accomplish.

    Also, you should start looking Minecraft as a Platform, rather than a game. Yes, EMC has many similar aspects to the basic "game" that Minecraft comes with, but it is its own game, and its developers decide what to do with it. Same as any other server which has mini games, mods, plugins etc, they can regulate mechanics however they want. EMC can do the same, even though it seems a lot like regular vanilla.

    You shouldn't need staff to repeat what they have previously stated. Play your way, without TNT duping, because in the game provided to us by the EMC server, it is not part of the game.And... if you do find some way for your hypothetical to become true, and some other players might consider it cheating, ask the staff about it before you do it to make sure you aren't breaking the rules, plain and simple. Staff are there to help and answer any questions you have, and if they do not know the answer, they will relay you to someone who can answer it for you.
  3. Haha, I have no kind of power outside of a normal player outside of stage. On stage, who cares? It's separate from the rest of EMC in most regards of typicality.
  4. I have my reasons for asking. The staff claims that it's the duping part that's a problem because they consider it to be a harmful duping mechanic, but I suspect that there may actually be an underlying dislike of the idea of having mining machines as well. If that is the case, then I want to know before I spend time working out how to do it, rather than investing time and resources only to have it be banned anyway later.
    Tuqueque likes this.
  5. By the current rules of EMC, automized quarries as most of the Minecraft community knows are illegal on EMC. You can't even build a stagnant deploying system due to the fact that currently TNT can't be used from dispensers either. Your current options are the following:
    • Mine by hand with Haste II beacon (my preferred method)
    • TNT placed manually with /noprotectmode on
    • Stagnant deploy platform but you have to place the TNT rather than dispense it.
    Now, whether or not you hire the work out to others to get it done faster or not is up to you. But almost all advanced forms of quarries are not allowed on EMC due to all using a feature that is either illegal or disabled.
  6. Not necessarily true. There is possibly another way using custom EMC mechanics. The particular features are being used as intended, no bugs or exploits. If quarries are illegal because of the mechanics they use, then quarries aren’t illegal, but the mechanics are. However, if any quarry-type block excavation machine (non-TNT-consuming quarry machines) is illegal regardless of the mechanics, then that’s different. In the former case, my potential method would be completely allowed. In the latter case, it would not be.
  7. Send staff a PM and we can discuss it further. Based on the information given so far I'm unable to comment on whether it would be allowed outside of the previously discussed TNT duplication question.
    Tuqueque likes this.
  8. I am unsure of what method you would be referring to, but like Elfin said PM a SS or Staff your inquiry to make sure it's legal. And if it is, due share it with us cause I could always use a new method of clearing spaces.
    Tuqueque likes this.
  9. A different way to do this Is I have a design that im going to make into a tutorial that has tnt in a massive cube and auto ignites one to break the cobble.
    Tuqueque likes this.
  10. Endless amounts of random deviance from vanilla gameplay, such as this, in order to make EMC more 'fair' is exactly what alienates new players and makes this place way more unappealing to join/stay.
  11. While in this particular case I can understand their arguments against TNT duping, however, I do agree that the change from vanilla are somewhat random or inconsistent. For example, not being able to move mobs through portals doesn't make sense anymore since Paper has fixes for portal duping and portal lag machines don't work anymore.
  12. That's on our list to drop that restriction... There is tons of code that relies on mobs never changing worlds, so re-enabling it isn't as simple as dropping the blocking code.

    One is totally allowed to 'suggest' changes that return to a vanilla mechanic...
    I don't think there are that many... I think we are rather consistent on things though.

    Duping issues are never going to be allowed. End of Story.
    This thread's existence is nonsensical. TNT duping was confirmed to be undesired by Mojang... hence the standard of matching vanilla mechanics when possible is met.
    EquableHook likes this.
  13. Hopefully we can move to an EMC where we can hopefully enable TNT dispensers!
  14. Okay, everything else you said is fine, except for that last part. This was discussed in the previous thread that lead to this thread, so I don't blame you for not having read it, but TNT duping is confirmed to be an intended mechanic by a Mojang dev (see https://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/...elf_to_the_nether_snapshot_20w12a_is/fkv2yyv/). As the Minecraft Java Tech Lead stated, TNT duping fills a role in the game that nothing else can. So to say that the standard of matching vanilla mechanics when possible is met is incorrect. And again, if you don't want TNT duping on EMC fine, whatever, it's your server to make decisions on. But don't pretend it's for any reason other than pure dislike of the mechanic and its implications.
    Burki likes this.
  15. Well. I encourage you to re-read my wording. I said "undesired" which is a highly subjective word. Based on them wanting a replacement, to me, implies that they are dissatisfied with its standing. Everyone is going to read what they want out of things though.
    Fun fact. Did you know that Mojang had fixed tnt duping and then reverted it leading to that reddit conversation? Dissatisfaction with the mechanic but not a strong enough conviction to act. The core code issue is duping. Mojang draws the line that duping entities isn't a big deal, but the Paper/EMC dev teams think it is.

    Limiting TNT is part of who EMC is from year 1. I have tried to move us towards enabling more tnt things, but it is a highly dangerous mechanic. Few people probably remember when TNT was only placeable by Diamond Supporters. That was axed due to EULA concerns, but that was in place before I joined EMC. Or even recently when the list of explodeable blocks was extremely limited. I only bring this up, to say that EMC has always made these type of modifications. To me, my biggest issue with the mechanic is NOT that I dislike duping (which I suppose is true), but the real reason is how easy it is to destroy our players builds. Although amazing progress has been made with the Anti Grief update towards protecting players builds, many peoples builds remain incompletely protected. I will stand on the side of our established players who spent years of their life working on a frontier build, rather than an off-the-rails crazy that join our server and want to cause maximum low effort destruction.

    It is a catchy tag line to say, let us do whatever we want. But from my perspective, without limits certain players will literally drive this server into the ground. Most people want what's best, but there are a few people around just here to cause chaos and stir drama.
    A perfect example of driving the server into the ground is server TPS. I know there is a thread on it that is just as ranty and unreadable as this one. Server lag is by and large caused by hoppers. People love their hoppers and hate their tps dipping. At some point EMC will need to pick. Do we want to play your way without restrictions till it is actually unplayable, or make some compromises to the vanilla experience which will benefit the server as a whole. I think it is an easy choice, but both dev choices will be criticized incessantly by the people inconvenienced.

    Frankly, I am tired. It is hard to find free time to work on things that I know people are going to criticize regardless of its net benefit. (Again not talking about the vast majority of players, I am again talking about those that only speak hurtfully and nothing beneficial unless it fits their agenda).
    But whatever, it is "my server", I am just over here manipulating this community to create my own twisted version of a game which I get to play soooo much. Every development decision I make is not only made carelessly but also intentionally bug ridden. When I do put thought into something, I am thinking about how it can drive away X, Y, Z players of the community I love. But I would never take into consideration the desires of that community, since I live in an echo chamber of my own selfish ambitions. I am just a gear in the machine of life that takes the path of least resistance to maintain the status quo at any cost. I have rewritten EMC's history to only include the good things about the past; as living in denial is preferential to having to come to terms with the fact that the past was not as good as the collective remembers. But whatever, it is my decision. I don't want to make new friends. I don't want new members of our EMC community. I want things exactly as they always have been till it slowly dwindles away, as I won't notice since I will be lost in the gameplay that I have unilaterally created. I'm just some random dude on the internet with unlimited free time. What do I know.
    __Devil_ and WitherDoggie like this.
  16. Is it really though?

    For someone who wants to maliciously grief, I highly doubt that TNT duplication is a go-to. I mean I know exactly what I would do if I wanted to grief something easily:

    Someone can easily smother any existing build right now with one of these, but from what I've seen there's only been a few minor circumstances of this occuring. And has EMC/paper disabled or limited water and lava interactions to stop this?
    Maybe it should be considered if we're truly worried about mass griefing.

    Just an example of course, but to create a fully functioning TNT duper will be incredibly difficult and time consuming, especially considering how buggy flying machines on EMC already are. Yet alone making it in a big enough scale to actually be worth creating.
    In almost all cases it will be way easier to pull out a pickaxe and wreck a build or cover it in cobble with a lava cast compared to some TNT bomber , so I don't really agree that it's going to have much effect on griefing at all.

    (and thank you for your dev duties chicken)
    Egeau likes this.
  17. I have never found the lava/cobble griefing a problem. Since firespread is disabled for legitimate griefing reasons, the lava won't burn things down. And cobble/liquids can be cleaned up in no time at all with WorldEdit.

    Sure the pickaxe way still exists, but I have never been a fan of justifying one thing by blaming something else.
  18. It's by no means justifying tnt bomb griefing, just pointing out that there are many many ways that someone can do low effort mass griefing in way more efficient ways which haven't been patched in a way that impede on vanilla features.

    I still struggle to see how TNT machines of all things is where we decide to draw the line.
  19. As we have said time and time again, it doesn't matter if there is a vanilla alternative or what naught, TNT duping machines are an exploit that is not and will not ever be legal on EMC. We have heard (and I have argued it before a long time ago) this argument come up time and time again. You may not see it as an exploit, but those in charge do and many of us players do as well. Using one TNT should yield one explosion. Not one TNT to potential thousands. You are entitled to think what you all will, but there is always the vanilla tried and true methods I listed before. I feel the best compromise would be to reenable TNT drops from dispensers. We could use it for farms but not for quarries and mass griefing via flying machines.
  20. If it was actually labelled an exploit by mojang then I'd happily accept it and move on, but the fact that they have not only kept it in the game but also gone on and said that it's a mechanic they want in their game for it's functionality (although hints they want to replace it with something more conventional) just shows how we're missing a key part of the game simply due to it 'being an exploit'.

    Most of the minecraft's fun is built off exploits after all. Why do we allow iron/gold e.t.c farms that exploit spawning mechanics? Because it saves us time as players and allows us to gather it and move on to what we actually want to do. Many items on the game can be turned from 1 to thousands if you exploit them correctly, and we love that we can duplicate them with farms.

    See this thread for example, that I found on google but funnily enough is an EMC thread. It was once debated whether iron farms were exploits and should be allowed, and now years later it seems funny to even consider banning them because they've been in the game for long enough for us to accept it as a minecraft mechanic now. I'm sure that if TNT dupers stayed in the game for long enough then the minecraft community will come to accept it as an essential minecraft mechanic too.
    TomvanWijnen likes this.