Restore redstone/hopper timings and item grouping mechanics to vanilla

Discussion in 'The Suggestion Box' started by Cybotjr, Apr 9, 2024.

  1. Hello devs,

    It is my understanding that hoppers etc have been improved across the versions of minecraft. I am wondering if we can revisit the modifications made to hoppers and any other redstone timings that may have been made and see if they are viable on the server.

    In addition, I am not knowledgeable of the performance improvements of item grouping, but that causes items to skip hoppers in item streams, which necessitates hopper chains instead of significantly fewer hoppers needed when transporting items via streams.

    Thank you for your time and the great server,

    Joy_the_Miner and PetezzaDawg like this.
  2. I'm under the impression that items in water streams being missed isn't caused by the item grouping, but rather that on EMC hoppers check for item entities far less frequently than vanilla. In vanilla I believe every hopper is checking every tick (or close to that) for if it can suck up any items, which is what adds up to so much lag with a lot of hoppers (or checking inventory slots in containers above them). So the frequency that hoppers check of entities is drastically reduced, others would be more knowledgeable on the specific numbers for that.
    Items grouping together is just something that bukkit/spigot/paper does, so pretty much all non vanilla servers have that. In it's self it doesn't effect the speed that hoppers will pick things up, but it does mean that full stacks may accumulate and not allow the hoppers to catch up. I.e. in a sorter, items are being dispensed into water at hopper speed, but the sorter slices have to wait for a full stack before they stop sticking at the dropper, so part of the stack is missed when the hopper gets filled.

    I would be all for revising the hopper changes, as it does make redstone particularly special on EMC, but I doubt the lag reduction is minimal enough to get rid of it.
    NuclearBobomb and Cybotjr like this.
  3. I had this issue as well and when using water streams to sort items, I just made that stream a loop as that eventually all the items would make it in the hoppers.
    Raaynn and Cybotjr like this.
  4. ThaKloned, how did you handle non-stackables, overflow and items not filtered?
  5. There are ways to filter unstackables. One example is using a brewing stand for potions. The issue with unstackables filtering is they often take up a lot more space but the end result (if you have the room) is well worth it. You could really go crazy and use alleys to sort almost everything. Check out some youtube videos. I use the potion sorter at one of my bases and works perfectly. Very little redstone needed.
    Cybotjr likes this.
  6. In general I'd say that water based sorters just aren't reliable enough to be worth it, just use hopper chain sorters. If you want remnants to be in a water stream just dispense them again at the end. Others may have solutions to the contrary, that's just my two cents :p
    Cybotjr, Fred_TWK and ThaKloned like this.
  7. You're not wrong :D
  8. That would be a loooooooooot of hoppers, especially since i'm trying to sort most items. I think redispensing items may make sense.
  9. 1 word alays u need to put 4 in a row to sord 1 item out of my understanding thats not
    like limited by hopper speed
  10. I got rid of water streams, even without ice they were still too fast, items would need to make the trip around the storage area many many times and likely despawn without intervention. Still sad about the hoppers =/. Bulk storage with an automatic shulker loader works, but it's prone to losing full shulkers if the locked hopper isn't unlocked for long enough, or if the box flies to the side. The normal speed of hoppers would pick up almost immediately, before the shulker even hits the ground, making it work with standard redstone timing.
    PetezzaDawg likes this.
  11. I agree with this post. I don't have the raw numbers, but I'm pretty sure the servers can handle vanilla redstone behavior with the current load on the machines. We don't have as many players as we once did; I think it's a worthy consideration!

    That being said, I'm not sure if the current changes have removed inefficiencies that vanilla has... 🤔️
    Cybotjr likes this.
  12. um fanila redstone on with a paper server
    im not a chickeneer or some 1 that knows stuf about plugins but basicly paper or bukit or plugins like that make redstone look like fannila but it is not it looks like it but its not tip if u want to make shure a farm works on emc look for works on paper or bucket in the title or description and u need way more hoppers on emc or hopper minecards on hoppers

    note cubicmetre made a real good vidioe explaning how muchts pain i go troug efry day needing to a just a ton of stuf that shut work and works in fannila and than u build it and it does not do what u didigned it for specialy weart timing and a lot of them in a row that need to be acurate
  13. I'd love to see a review of this as well. I know we are running on old hardware at this point, but also many fewer players than back in the day. I don't know all the details, but it does seem that Mojang has been making a lot of updates to hopper performance and in 1.20.5 even changed behavior to stop looking for items when the hopper has a solid block on top (no more composters everywhere!). I think it is certainly worth a look. I know there are still differences between Vanilla and paper/spigot, but the hopper collection speed is the one that interferes most with my technical Minecraft play.
    Cybotjr likes this.
  14. I've always used water stream sorters, but I use honey blocks on the back walls to help slow things down. 99% of what I send through gets sucked in.
    Cybotjr and FierendenMDS like this.
  15. please come back we miss you or i do
    BlockHead_56 likes this.
  16. also i saw some 1 use hoper minecard filters instead of normal filters but u would have a ton of enteties but they work real good
  17. On the back walls?
    Like this? Hn W
    Hn = honey, w = water stream, H = hopper

    My setup using sea pickles to align items along hopper line was:

    G W S
    I H
    G = glass, w = water stream, i = ice, S = slab over the H = hopper

    Would honey on the floor work the same, or would items get stuck in the honey?
  18. not rilly in most cases the items will flow on the water not touch the honer or it will touch the hopper but not the honey block but u can always try note honey blocks are 1 pixel lower
  19. That's item grouping. I redstoned a fix around that some years ago, making hoppers no longer skipped. The redstone is still running at 1070 and 963 (my stone and wool shop), and I haven't had a skipped hopper in years, and I believe there is a demo version on 5332 somewhere.
    Basically, you need to drop four items quickly (4gt clock instead of the 8gt of hoppers,) for a while, and then slimeblock them out and wait, to quick them out again. I think I needed five items dropped at a 4gt clock, to then slime, wait 20gt, and repeat. I build that in an hour or so on-site when I noticed the skipped hoppers, but never thought much of it. I think the whole setup is 5x3x3 blocks or something?

    To this day, all of 1070 and 963 uses ice-based sorters and item transportation I think. Yes, there are some issues with it, but, imo, nothing that cannot be fixed with an hour of debugging.

    Of course, that doesn't work if you are not dropping the items with a dropper first, but that is unreliable in vanilla too. My advice for that would be to use the new hopper-minecart lava-cauldon unloaders with some rail tricks for stack manipulation, but I cannot be bothered to test that right now. Alternatively, use a merry-go-round.

    Honestly, and I know this is going to be a fringe opinion, I have always kind of liked EMC's changes from vanilla. It means you cannot just copy-paste whatever youtuber's setup, and have to put some thought in yourself, which is precisely what I like to be doing when I'm doing redstone.

    For large scale stuff (as in: many items to sort, 1070 only has a handful,) I just use a dropper line on top?
    Like, instead of hoppers, droppers with observers over them as a line. That works just like a hopper line, but without the hopper lag... Water and Hoppers aren't the only two options.
    Fred_TWK likes this.
  20. I can't visualize your text notation for layout, but essentially, imagine a letter U. The inside of the U (front wall facing your workshop or whatever) can be whatever blocks you want. The outside (back wall) of the U would be honey blocks on top of the hoppers and whatever other blocks before and after those sections. Ice blocks would in front of and on the same y-level as the hoppers. making the floor of the water path. Idk if that helps.