[ Feature Discussion ] Empire Shop Management System

Discussion in 'Empire News' started by IcecreamCow, Jul 2, 2012.

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  1. Yes they will stabilize out... The idea I talked to Jeremy about is having 1 market per server to help keep some diversity.
    But high demand items like wood.. that price will constantly fluctuate... But low demand items will be very static yes...

    But some ideas ive considered is to not always show every item, and only get a subset... So that you can hit refresh a few times and maybe find cheaper.

    But doing stuff like that could impact the simplicity of a "Quick buy" concept... Now were starting to sacrifice usability features just to please the minority of major economist... And I extremely hate that idea. But my main goal is to keep prices stable and not get inflated or crash...

    Right now, we have some players that have millions of rupees... IF those rupees ever got distributed among the general population, then inflation would start the occur... The only reason it hasn't yet is because those players are hoarding them and not using them. Thankfully our recent diamond dupe excursion actually expelled a very large sum of rupees out of the economy.

    The market will be controlled by supply and demand ultimately... Which is how a market SHOULD be.
    Well its not really "shops" in the new system, its a market and you simply see whos selling the item you want. You want an item, you can buy item, without much effort, and get back to doing what ever your wanting to do with said item.

    The shop system is suppose to help players acquire items to help them build. Were tryin to make the economy more effecient, so players have more time to build... Players have limited time.

    The new system lets everyone have a very effecient means of buying items time wise, and lets all shop owners get exposure to having their items sold.

    Under our current system, there are tons of new players with small shops and great prices, but they never get much sales because they arnt big.

    Alot of people dont have the time to go /v random all over the place to save a few rupees. The big owners get all the business because its the fastest way to get the stuff you need.

    So its either Keep old system and let the select few major shop owners keep all the business, or have new system and everyone has equal exposure at their item being sold...

    Of course we want the new system!

    Well, You would not be able to access the items you bought, or send more up to sell, but I see no reason why you cant make purchases while in wild, then you have to go to town to pick them up.

    As said above, there is no concept of shops with the new system. players are open to price their items at what they feel is fair and likely to sell within a reasonable timeframe.
    Aikar, Jul 2, 2012
    #21
  2. As I said above, to keep the old system is favoring the large shop owners...

    They get all the action, all the main sales. How is that fair to a new player who has 3 items in his shop that never sells?

    Sure, that large shop owner may have put alot of work into his shop, but why does that mean the new player has to suffer?

    New players have to spam chat to let people know their shop exists to even get a chance at sales... listing every item they have 1 by 1 with price.. I know because I did this!

    When someone needs a specific item, they simply /v the closest "super mall" and buy the item.

    Only people looking for profit uses /v random to go around.

    We want to make the market open for everyone to unload their goods and make money... not keep it targetting to a select few.

    The reason people build shops is because this is an economy server!

    A primary goal here is to make money... and how do you make money? selling items! ... So a shop is kind of a "must have".

    We want to make it so that everyone can sell their items, even on day 1.

    And really, the large shop owners are getting bored of it...

    Leo has his prices at 1r profit because theres not much else to do with the shop.

    But with this new system, if you want to be a major economist, youll still constantly be managing your orders, restocking some, adjusting prices, relisting as they expire, and watching the overall market trend.

    It gives you more work to do as an economist, and keeps it less boring.
    Aikar, Jul 2, 2012
    #22
    SpaceShuttleFan and Kman122000 like this.
  3. With all of this in consideration, I am coming around to this idea. In fact I'm pro this idea.
    Reasons I am for this idea:
    1) Small shops can get the startup rupees they need easily this way, just offer cheaper than average prices.
    2) Large shops will still get plenty of business because the small shops are just that, small, and will run out of inventory quickly at the lower prices.
    3) No longer is living in town about buying from a shop to build a shop.
    4) No more (well... less) people asking, who sells item X, or stating I have item Y for sale @ 1r/ea, etc in chat.
    5) The market will stabilize itself.
    LZBZ_DW, Jul 2, 2012
    #23
  4. We care about input of course, but I believe a lot of the resistance here is fear of change... If we had this system in place on day 1, would you really be complaining saying "omg you should change this"? No you wouldn't.

    We have to innovate and expand...

    But I just talked with Jeremy. We will keep the old system around, and add stuff to the market to advertise ingame shops.

    First stage will be listing the shops, residences, etc, like the EMC Shops website, and your own description, maybe a picture too (pending moderation), and then stage 2 we will look into adding automatic stock / price listings.

    Essentially, players can go to the website, find your shop, see what you have, then it tells you where to go in game to get the item.

    But players could also just use the market...

    Shop owners can then use both, or just 1, it will be up to them.
    Aikar, Jul 2, 2012
    #24
  5. By reading 99% of all the comments here is my take on this:

    MY Pros:
    1. It will clean up the chat
    2. The market will stabilize it's self
    3. The people who live in the wild can still live in the wild and somewhat own a shop
    4. This opens up room for more possibilities.

    MY Cons:
    1. Takes the fun out of building mega malls
    2. It could cause some inflation
    3. It will make some members leave

    This is just stuff off the top of my head...

    I will say me and bloodra1n have been designing a new mega mall to extend to the other servers and I have bought almost 10 double chests of sandstone and this will kinda defeat the purpose.
    BobTheTomato9798, Jul 2, 2012
    #25
  6. While you may be partially right with that, that satisfaction gained from building a shop that is more sucessful than others is lost, you have to realize that is only a fraction of the things possible in MineCraft.

    This new system helps players do what the game intends them to do: Build things and make money!

    Were not taking away the chat system, nor resident visiting.

    The players will keep the community active, through chat and events. That is the main thing that drives community interaction.

    There will be sacrifice, there will be adaption needed, but it is needed.

    Think of things like upload an MCEdit schematic and it automatically builds a purchase order that buys every item you need to finish that schematic, and lists the price, then you push one button.

    Under current system, that will be ALOT of work to find all those items. It may even discourage some people. And the people with such large orders are usually not in a chatty mood when searching tons of shops to find stock....

    Hmm, while most people will have signs to buy/sell items, id say at least 95% of the residences i've been on is NOT a "mega mall".

    These are random houses, structures, art, recreation of famous structures, events, or ... abstract dirt creations.

    That 95%+ is the ones who are going to benefit from this. Just because you may think a shop is the only worthwhile thing to build doesn't mean the rest of our players are not creative....
    Aikar, Jul 2, 2012
    #26
  7. By the way...just as a side note, we are going to expand in more ideas than JUST the economy, including different events/servers over time. We will keep things interesting as we grow. :)
    IcecreamCow, Jul 2, 2012
    #27
  8. Is Runescape's ECON similar to EVE online? Just wondering because I have had a few years of experience in the Runescape field before I started playing MC, would we have graph charts with the average sell price and POTD (Price of the Day) IF so the econ will be taking a major step in the right direction. Not for inflation or anything people will get to realize real consequences from buying too much and trying to sell them for a higher price. I looked at it a little bit and it seemed like it would be a lot more involved, and deeper economy which is what some players are looking for but would never expect to find it in minecraft :D
    Tehwafflez, Jul 2, 2012
    #28
    B4DMAN5IMON likes this.
  9. Yes, that kind of gameplay would go away... We know this... But what about all the other players who DON'T want to do all that?

    I said I chose to play differently on EMC than I normally do in games. I chose to not be an economist.

    Why should that rule me out from selling items?

    When you sell items at others shops, your making THEM profits for a quick sale. If you want to get more value for your product, you have to setup a shop.

    People who go into the wild and collect resources them come back to sell it, thats the position they are stuck in.

    But what if they dont want to make a shop and put time into advertising, and their main "mega mall" is full on stock?

    Why should they be stuck? With this new idea, everyone has options. They can sell to another person immediately for quick cash, or sell the item as an order quickly for fair prices, and not worry about advertising and economics.

    Children are our primary audience here... We need it to be simple and friendly to everyone. We don't need to bring real life "jobs" into a video game played by kids.

    That's what it currently is today, and we're trying to fix that.

    You can still gain fame and recognition by being a good person, having fair prices, running events and socializing people.

    You don't have to be a business man to be reputable.
    Aikar, Jul 2, 2012
    #29
  10. Yes max logged in RS to show me and its a similiar concepts, just RS seems alot more simplified, where as EVE is more advanced and statistical...

    I'd hope to meet in a middleground :)
    Aikar, Jul 2, 2012
    #30
    B4DMAN5IMON and Tehwafflez like this.
  11. I built a giant tree, a haunted house, a wild-style residence, and am currently working on my 4th residence, not.. Sure what to call it, honestly. I like making visually pleasing things for the public, and I enjoy helping out other players. I often help other players' build visually pleasing buildings when I am asked to do so. I don't expect any rupees from the public, but honestly.. I don't really know who sells what, and I get frustrated when I am trying to buy something like netherbrick, and thecontroller was bought out.. Then I go to smp 2, visit leowaste, buy him out, and find to my dissatisfaction that is no where near enough.

    I would much rather be able to post a BUY order on the market page for a mass amount of item that I am seeking, because as a Moderator, I really don't have a lot of time. Adults, who work for a living also have a limited amount of time, and I'm sure they'd rather just put in a buy order for what ever they're seeking.

    I will tell you what, though. If I see a shop listed on the website, and has enough stock ingame.. I'll probably just login and go there, rather then put in a buy order.

    How I see this, is it is all about efficiency and saving time.
    Maxarias, Jul 2, 2012
    #31
    Tehwafflez likes this.
  12. Your not getting it. The best way to profit is to sell to big shops because big shops can sell for high prices and buy for high prices. I can sell a stack of logs to a shop for 80r each because that shop gets customers 24/7 for the sole fact of keeping in stock. Whereas if I were to try to sell them at my shop for 80r, they'd never sell because others sell them cheaper. Your right in one aspect, you don't have to be a business man to be reputable. You have to be honest and well known, and on the Empire that is done mainly through big shops.
    roblikescake, Jul 2, 2012
    #32
    hayleycolgan, Call_Me_DeJaja, Beaverbeliever and 1 other person like this.
  13. I can't say I love the idea. However, I can't say I hate it.

    A compromise. On the site list the shops stock level. Let them see which shop sells what and all the prices. Even include the current market averages. However, do not allow buying or selling.

    Build the buying and selling into EMCUI or the supposedly upcoming EMC Client. Only allow people to buy or sell from a shop if they're standing inside the shop's res. That way people still have to visit the shop, and see what it looks like. Keep chestshop but allow people to buy and sell with ease through the UI, making bulk buying easy. By having both systems you keep both side relatively happy.

    So basically what I want a better version of EMC shops to be built that is fully automated but that means you still have to go to the reses shop to buy stuff.

    And just for the record, I don't own a big shop (or a shop at all) and never intend to.
    JackBiggin, Jul 2, 2012
    #33
    Beaverbeliever and mogrimoogle like this.
  14. Actually no, my fear is the opposite: price crash. Undercut wars can crash prices, so thats the main thing im looking to combat.

    Increased supply from enabling more people to sell goods will prevent inflation, and the Empire Shop prices puts a hardcap on all items prices, ensuring it never can become too inflated.

    We have players threaten to leave all the time... many more leave each day than the # of people who threaten to. What matters is ensuring our server is tailored to the majority and attracts new players.

    Having a shop system that works to be a tool for you instead of "the game" will def attract new players, its common sense. People play MC to build, not to run shops. Running shops was just a secondary feature of EMC.

    Anyways, i'm heading to the beach, so I gotta go now... Maybe will hit some hotspot down there and chime in over next few days
    Aikar, Jul 2, 2012
    #34
  15. Simple solution as I stated before:

    1. Keep chestshops the way they are. Shop owners worked hard to get where they are now, how could you possibly even consider stripping that away from them?
    2. Have a plugin for the site where you can see what a shop has to offer and for what prices. This plugin relates directly with the prices in the physical shop the owner has.
    3. Make it available to have bulk prices/quantities. Maybe the owner will allow a discount if you buy a certain amount, he can set that amount in the site
    4. Change the prices on the site, prices change in game at your shop.
    5. Want to buy/sell something? Either go to their shop physically or pay a fee on a site to have it directly handed to you wherever you are.
    This benefits everyone. You can pay a fee to get items instantly via this buy/sell type of site you mentioned, or you can physically go to their shop and only have the vault fees if they apply to that particular situation.
    roblikescake, Jul 2, 2012
    #35
    CaesarCelestian, JackBiggin, Beaverbeliever and 2 others like this.
  16. The system in place, from what I can gather won't take away the learning experience, just make it more user friendly. I remember playing games like that as well, and they all have a "hold your hand" experience while you get started. This will be that for us. It CAN be simple, but doesn't have to be.
    IcecreamCow, Jul 2, 2012
    #36
  17. For the countless people I've noted who have said this is to help those who live in /wild;

    The way I understand how this is written up, anything bought/sold via the proposed system will be uploaded to the /vault before reaching cyberspace. As such you still have to be in /town to buy/sell items due to the restrictions on the /vault mechanism.

    I welcome Aikar/Jeremy to correct/amend me on this.
    B4DMAN5IMON, Jul 2, 2012
    #37
  18. It won't be the ACTUAL /vault...but more of a "virtual" holding space for the items. Yes, you WILL have to be in town to access it still, so it's not a magic delivery service for those in the wild. :)
    IcecreamCow, Jul 2, 2012
    #38
    B4DMAN5IMON likes this.
  19. This would open up buying and selling for everyone. I guess that's why the current shopkeepers don't like it.
    It means change for shop owners, but also new opportunities.

    Those who do the work to gather resources will be able to market them more easily (no more camping you-know-who's exchange to see if you can jam more blaze rods into the chest). Power to the people! :cool:

    I like that the current shop system will stay in place. It has its charm. Prices will become even more elastic, which will be a challenge to anyone operating a shop.

    I don't see the need for market fees or attempts to combat inflation. I also don't see the worry about inflation. I think most of the inflation is caused by the current market system itself.

    When the option for holding auctions was opened up, and people started auctioning off enchanted items, was there inflation? No, there was a strong deflationary trend, reducing the prices of enchanted items. The same thing will happen for many other more common items in game.

    An example: Blaze Rods. They sell for 10-15r per rod. When the markeplace opens up all those who grind on blazes will flood the market with blaze rods since they are no longer dependent on an exchange or shop owner having space for the inventory. Prices for blaze rods will plummet by at least 50%. The same can be said for bones, spider eye, string, rotten flesh, etc.

    Some prices will go up, too. People will realize that certain products are undervalued because when people had to go to a shop to buy them, they wouldn't bother, but now with the convenience of a marketplace, they most certainly would like easy access to stuff like dispensers, cake, redstone repeaters, etc which are a pain in the neck to build for yourself in quantity.
    Curundu, Jul 2, 2012
    #39
    k123nino and IcecreamCow like this.
  20. Alright, I'm actually not sure if this is good or not.

    I'm an owner of a Mall on smp4, #9000. I made a mall because there was none yet on smp4 before i made it, and smp4 really needed it as the economy was nearly dead.

    A few questions pop in my head immediatly:
    1. The whole reason behind this is to make it easier to get what you want.
    Why do we need an additional system for this, is the empire shop not good enough?
    You must consider the reasons why people made malls. They did because they wanted to serve people, make it more easy for everyone to get their items, on a fair price. (partially) Taking away the concept of signshop's will be less rewarding to mall-owners, and therefor making it less attractive to have one.

    2. The small fish want to get attention too, and they are not possible to do that because of the malls.
    What might be possible reasons for this? Most of the time new players tend to make their prices high, and saying it's cheap to 'make money fast', as we all know, it won't really end up on much sales. On the other side, new people often tend to have their items priced too low, as we all know, they end up 'Out Of Stock'.
    Most of the time they want a really high price for their items, which is not realizable.

    3. Why do we want prices to stay the same?
    In real markets prices constantly fluctuate. That's good, because of supply/demand that always keeps changing. This plugin is also made to give the prices a more stable price. This will make every shop even, not just the malls, but even the smaller shops can never compete with eachother because of this.

    Don't get me wrong, but I think it can be good, but it will need a limit.
    It could be good for Bulk-buys. Think of big projects, that need sandstone for example, they place a buy order, and within a few minutes they could have it. But the downside is (if i have read correctly), is that it's only for selling. I'm not sure how that will work out. But I believe this can work with Bulk-trades. Minimal of 3 stacks, that will prevend people from spamming the new system, and as not everyone will be using bulk-trades, this might aswell favor the mall-owners. And a big tax would fit in well. Over-use of this might take away the aspect of shop-hopping for good prices, which is a thing a lot people do. Taking away a part of the game is probably the last we want.

    Changes can be good, but please take the comments as constructive feedback, some might be harsh, some actually contain valuable information. Please think this out really well before you plug it in the EMC-market.
    bloodra1n, Jul 2, 2012
    #40
    CaesarCelestian likes this.
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