To PvP or not to PvP?

I figured I'd start a new thread for this since we've totally hijacked the new rupee system's post lol. I've included contextual referenses to my response below. Lets continue this PvP discussion here instead.

Shouldn't you ban him for admitting he engaged in PvP? That's as good as a screenshot isn't it? He should also turn in the names of those who attacked him so they can also be banned. But I guess the lack of a screenshot makes it impossible to prove?

Thing is you can't ban him because you feel sorry for him being attacked and have no remorse for those that attacked him and failed...which says to me that you guys support passive PvP when the defender wins. No PvP means even the defender should be banned for fighting back even if the end result didn't end in death of anyone. The fact that they were trying to set him on fire meant they intended to kill him.

You also know that in the heat of combat, you don't think to hit the F2 button and take a screenshot and therefore he probably couldn't get the names of the people due to the fact that the attack was a surprise to him, basic instinct kicks in and you defend yourself instead of going "help! admin! i'm under attack by XX and YY and ZZ!" in chat or pressing F2. What do you expect him to do? Stand there and take it? If he's running away the attackers are behind him and he won't be able to get a screenshot of their names anyway. Is it fair to him to be banned for combat that was instigated by others? Even if they did report him when they started it, when he comes back later and says "They started it." who do you believe? The fact that someone reports being attacked means they will themselves be investigated to see if they attacked back at some point because basic instinct is fight or flight, and neither is condusive for obtaining a screenshot of the situation that won't result in failed attempts to obtain such a screenshot or a self induced ban of themselves because the screenshot shows them holding a weapon of some kind that could be interpreted as fighting back or even assumed that they started it...

I was thinking about this last night, andI think that if you guys implemented a PvP flag system that when you cause player damage in any form that it flags your character for PvP combat for 15 minutes and allows everyone who wants to engage you in combat this would stop these random attacks and at least give the players the ability to defend themselves and ask for help from those who want to help and are willing to be flagged for PvP as well.

If a PvP server was setup, why would the griefers go there when everyone can fight back. They won't do it because they won't want to risk themselves. So the fact that a PvP server exists won't solve the griefing problem IMO.

I think that a good system would involve a few commands. Typing /pvp enable or /pvp disable would announce you were going into pvp mode publicly and enable/disable pvp in 30 seconds. That way you couldn't sneak up to someone and instantly kill them. There would be no pvp in town no matter what. The other thing is if you were dying you couldn't turn it off to avoid dying instantly. It would likely create griefers however. I like the empire as it currently is.

yes but the griefers are not using normal weapons to engage in combat. They are setting fires on the ground which causes players to catch fire. Direct weapon combat is not allowed and you cannot do it in the servers. I've tested on my wife's character, and we cannot inflict direct damage between ourselves. Only indirect. So the Griefer's won't flag PvP directly (unless they're just real stupid). What i'm suggesting is that if you lay the fire down and someone gets damaged by it, then you should be flagged for PvP combat so the person you damaged has the ability to engage you in direct combat or pass up and keep going by dodging it. If they don't fight you then they still won't be able to receive direct combat, but they could report to the server "XX is flagged pvp if you want to kill him, he attacked me." this would let those who want to get revenge on the guy to kill him for attempting to grief.

I entirely agree with this. Town PvP should not be allowed at all. That's the PvE / Creative mode area. As it is, you cannot take any damage of any form in town so no one can kill you anyway even if you fell into a pit of lava...

I understand you want to discuss this, and I won't stop this discussion, ( couldn't really if I wanted to ) but I just want to make this clear. The empire is a pvp free server. It will always be a pvp free server. It is a perfect system? No probably not, but it is a system that works for us. I mean really look through the forums. How many complaints do you see?

I really don't want to put it this way, and please don't take it the wrong way. We enjoy every member that is here. But maybe the Empire isn't a good server for you? There are plenty of servers that have the set-up you would like.

You will always be welcome here at the empire. Even if you do go get your free for all world experience from another server. But pvp and the empire just don't mix.

As for tthreeoh, yes he admitted to defending himself. Yes by all rights we could ban him. But I personaly won't ban him. The reason being is according to him he didn't kill anyone. If he would have killed someone, and they reported it in a correct fashion, yes it's sad to say he probably would have been banned. But if you want to push this you have also admitted to using traps.

Direct PvP combat queries I couldn't tell you exactly. Like tthreeoh reported, he was attacked but didn't report it because he fought back. (he dealt with it himself) So perhaps most people just deal with it and don't bother the admins so therefore you think your system is working due to lack of reports when people are just fighting back but not reporting it...?

No I understand completely, there's no offense here what so ever. If I didn't like the system, I wouldn't be a paying member x3. I like the system for the most part we have. This is more of a hypethetical consideration of what can happen with your exisiting system and if anything it's making you guys consider situations where things can go wrong and hopefully making you think about methods to tie up those loose ends. You even admitted here that the system can potentially be flawed. It is working so far and lessens direct griefing you'd find on other servers so in no way am I saying I dislike the system we have now.

I'd appreciate not being threatened with bans. I do not use traps and you won't have any proof of me using one on the server because I don't lay them no matter what is said here. On the contrary I posted about covering up found holes prior to the reset:

Stating the fact that I might have traps out to deter people from coming into my areas, posting signs to the contrary in game does not mean I use them. It just means I COULD BE to make someone think twice about entering an area I'd like secured. If I used player kill holes then clearly that would be hypocritical of my whole concept lol. Now I do have some areas that have mob kill holes in use, but these can be easily dodged by players, and they can be gotten out of by people with tools...IE not mobs...I hadn't thought of lining these holes with cactus but recently I had considered using it so I wouldn't have to waste my tools to kill these mobs. Where those types of holes could be in use there will be warning signs out for players. So again, we're back to the saying: Who's at fault, the guy who placed the trap or the idiot who ignored the warning signs and fell in?

I didn't mean that as a threat I was just tryin to make a point. He admited to defending himself. Which yes we COULD ban him for it. You admited you (are/could be) useing traps. Both are the same in this instance.

This will not need further discussion. You have good intentions for the wilderness with your bridges and such. Do not break or bend the rules. We will pursue proper action against all claims.
I stand by "Pics or it didn't happen."...
In the Army, it goes along the lines of "If it isn't in black and white, it doesn't exist."
"If the glove don't fit, you must acquit."
What all of this means is, if there is no evidence, you can not be prosecuted...
Claims will be investigated but that does not guarantee justice will be served...

Difference being he admited to engaging in PvP combat which is against the rules. Where in the case of traps, justin stated were legal to use for mobs and if players fall in them they're just SOL.

...and this is where the loophole is. in regard to PvP combat, It's not black and white and where grey areas are is where the griefers will reside especially if they know about it. You can fight, but you can't kill someone...why would you fight someone and not intend to kill them? non-lethal force is acceptable...so what happens if by accident you lethally defend yourself, you're banned right? Maybe, or maybe not. Depends on the situation. So you say you thought someone was going to attack you so you pushed him off a cliff and he died because he missed the water that was below you were hoping he would hit, or maybe he even intentionally dodged out of the water so he'd die, and that guy would get banned and now the areas the banned player was in are free to take everything.

So the only sure fire way to not lethally defend yourself is to not engage in PvP at all, -which should be the rule since this is the route you guys choose. No one, even in the instance of defending themselves should engage in PvP combat of any form, even in non-lethal self defense or both players will be banned. It sounds harsh but really, this is what needs to happen to close that loophole up. If there's no screenshot of you attacking back, then you can't get banned right? Hopefully they have a screenshot of their inventory too before they die. And if you're like me, it's not just the inventory you are worried about, it's the enchanting levels you'll lose too. I'm never upset about the stuff I lose when I die, that can be replaced...it's the levels and hunting I'll have to do to restore my enchanting level...:\ That's a true investment of time to farm that stuff. The other stuff comes naturally with the normal work I do. (IE digging tunnels for my projects yeild tons of diamonds, buckets of lava and obsidian as a side effect)

Funny thing you should say army. Whenever my cousin went riot patrol they give him those non-lethal weps...He always still carried a 9mm in his back holster in case someone comes at him with a real weapon with the intension of killing him...

They don't disarm the military inside the country because they don't want to have friendly fire, they accept that friendly fire happens. however, there's a saying "No fire is friendly." As is PvP combat on here...

This is true but the Army is used as a combat tool, we are trained to properly defend ourselves, not to mindlessly kill everything....
Disarming us inside of a COMBAT ZONE does not happen.
However, in Honduras, I never once carried a military assigned weapon. It is a hostile occupational area, but we are not there for combat. Self defense is authorized but you will immediately be removed for your own safety, never to return... Our same policy here. Once you enact violence, we remove you... (It must be proven here, however... Word of mouth is nothing.)

Please continue to state your opinions, but know that we follow policies set forth by both Justin and Jeremy. We are the "police" not the "mayor" of the Empire.

I can already see an issue with this. Granted, your intentions are honest, but allowing PvP in the wilderness is like stashing a clear-glass cookie jar within reach of a 5-year-old child. He'll find a way to twist the situation to his advantage.

What I am saying is that there are players within the Empire that will use the new PvP system to get what they want. Diamond vein in plain view of the player, but someone else is trying to mine it? Kill the miner and take the node for themselves. Yes, yes, I realize that one can merely disable PvP to prevent this from happening, but all too often players forget about it. Such was the case on my old server with L4zyGaming, where PvP was free-range and could not be disabled. Many players would forget all about their PvP status, only to be backstabbed by a "friendly" player that went with them on this mining trip or that exploration adventure and ended up complaining about it later to us moderators.

This discussion has gone on long enough. There will NEVER be PVP in the Empire, it's a fact. You can complain and say you need to defend yourself, but that doesn't accomplish anything. Every time you post one of your long winded, back tracking arguments, somebody could have easily stolen something from you. Which is what you are trying to prevent.

You remember that subject of 'Passive Defense'? Why not try hiding your items? And even then, I highly doubt you are far enough away from the spawnpoint to walk back. I walked back from 40,000 (Granted I died at 5000) so I think you can handle walking back from 15,000ish. It's long and arduous, but that's the way the world works.

You talk about needing PVP to defeat griefers, but realize one thing:

If you are really so far away that it is unthinkable to walk back, it is one of your people that is stealing from you. That is almost definitely a fact. You don't need to kill a griefer to protect your items, because that still works in the exact same way as taking a screenshot (while one gets them banned and the other gets you banned.) and defeats your entire argument outright. Unless you hide your items, they will likely be stolen. If they are stolen while hidden, somebody in your group is doing it.

But that's just my opinion on it.

There's a solution for that...don't take people you don't trust, and always be ready. That's what a PvP server holds when you go there you accept those rules as do you accept the rules here not to no matter what. Even to defend yourself. If I was the moderator of that server, the solution there is "Tough cookies, it's PvP..." There's no need for an admin on a PvP server unless there's a non-PvP area that needs to be policed.

Yet it's done here to us... it's a combat zone that we have no weapons we can use against those who would do us harm.

That's my point exactly. Those that engage in PvP combat whether offensive or defensive should be removed. This will remove the grey area of the 'They started it..." stuff and we'll at least get rid of the griefers, and probably some other good players who actually follow the rules most of the time.

In my case, if someone attacks me I'll just spam the screenshot button, stand there and let them kill me and then give you nice folks a call in the hopes that you'll actually return my lost items and ban the jerk who attacked me because that's what you expect of us. So with that I'll expect justice to be served. Sorry but that's about as nice as I can get with that. It's not intended to be an ultimatum but really what else can I do? What is it that is expected of me? Some admins say fight, some say don't, some say you can defend yourself, some say you can't. The rule is no PvP, so if I don't do PvP I'm fine and you'll give back everything I lose right?

This isn't about stealing boxes...this is about a player who is actively attempting to kill your character to take your items from your hands. I believe you've gotten mixed up.

Unfortunately, you must look at reality. As this is a highly public server, plenty of people will hang out with their "pals" or fellow players. And all too often, players are subject to the whims of greed, even so much as to betray their comrades.

I was informed that the easiest solution the Empire staff found to solve this predicament was to basically remove all PvP from the server. And they seem pretty dead-set on keeping it that way.

I'll just say this. If you want to see how, letting people police themselves works. i invite you to play World of Warcraft for a week or 2. That place is a cesspit of people that find a way to annoy other people. people that only get enjoyment out of making other miserable. The idea of people standing up together, while nice in theory doesn't hold up in practice. People don't want to pvp, that is why they are here.

Why would you use that font colour?

Let them kill you. Take a picture. You win. They're banned. End of story.

And all items and experience is returned as well...if so that'll do for now...

I've played on both PvP and PvE WoW servers:

PvP:
You must go in groups while questing and leveling outside of the safe zones. It's a part of life. Join a guild that supports you and if you die, well at least you don't lose any goods when you get back to your body...

PvE:
You can't be killed at all by anyone unless you attack someone first so leave people who are flagged PvP alone and you're fine (one of my suggestions here)

World of warcraft though, you do not lose items or experience so if you die there, it's merely an inconvience. I played WoW for 5 years...it's nothing like this...