[CONCERN] Chat Rules

The problem with this is that having a set rule would make a lot of business owners (and even those who just occasionally buy/sell very angry).

It seems yoou would prefer to make potential customers angry.

I wish I could agree that having a rule to time an advertisement every 15-30 minutes would be a good thing, <snip>
My fault here, I meant a set time between 15 and 30 minutes. Of course I would prefer 30 but that seems excessive.

I do kind of have a problem with the fact that town and economy chat filter into each other. I wish that cold be separated but I'm worried about all the complications (programming and otherwise) that this could pose. Plus for some players, separating the two chats means that economy chat users lose some advertising potential (but that's a minor point).
Do you mean a separate chat window? Won't happen. You can turn econ chat if you like, /chat hide e. I prefer to leave it on so I can see ads, I just don't want to see the same ad every 5 minutes or less.

On another point, if you have to try for a couple hours and convince someone <snip>
As I said, this was talking to the spammer and then trying to find a set rule. Then going back and telling him he was loising customers by spamming. Seemed to be the only thing that got through (and even then it doesnt work mostly). I have now spent more time reading and replying to your post. A simple rule would save all that time as I would have just asked him, shown him the rule then /reported him if he continued. In other words, you just provided justification for having a set rule.
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So why not point him to http://rules.emc.gs/ and in particular mention this one:

. Do Not Spam The Chat

• This includes the use of repetitive punctuation, letters, messages, words, shop adverts, etc. Do not randomly advertise for no reason. Only advertise your shop/residence when necessary and only in the economy Chat.

If this is about justifying your own protests against his spamming then I'd say the rules already got you covered. If he defies those rules for whatever reason and continues to spam then I'd say its time to get staff involved.

Nothing really states what "necessary" could be. Anyone who wants to advertise their shop when they feel can deem it as "necessary" to themselves, thus justifying their advertisement. Without a restriction you can claim something is "necessary" as much as you wish, they can do it endlessly in all technicalities without a written statement to such.

So question for you: did you become annoyed after the first advertisement or after there had been several more? I assume the latter because that is usually what triggers people (myself included) to warn for spamming. So wouldn't it be fair to argue that the messages which followed the original one could be considered unnecessary because people had probably noticed the first already?

I do see the point you're trying to make, but I simply don't fully agree that the rules as they are in place now don't give us players enough grounds / backup to warn people for spamming. There are even solid fail saves put in place.

True story: some time ago on smp2 a player was spamming his messages. It was a busy chat and you could see his stuff, sometimes twice, on the same 't' page (press t to open chat window). A friend of mine, x7, warned him about it almost at the same moment as I did. And for sure, the player protested that he wasn't spamming. X7 was a little bit moody (hey, happens to all of us at times!) and started pulling ranks. As in: "when several seasoned players (100+ days) tell you you're spamming... you're probably spamming." (not a literal quote). We also made it clear that our warning was a courtesy. After all, the next stop is /report.

Another player got into this, also stating that this was annoying to him and at some point I referred to this rule:

10. General Other Rules

Intentionally causing public drama is not allowed.

• Intentionally doing anything that is likely to cause public upset, arguments, riots, or any other negative action, for any reason, is not allowed. Anyone participating in public drama via threads, pictures, videos or any of EMC’s features, including, but not limited to the Forums, statuses and in-game Chat, will face consequences up to and including a permanent ban from in-game and/orForums.

Hmm, I spot something I need to report

Anyway: 3 veteran players warning someone about spamming which leads into a not very constructive argument could be considered a wee bit of drama... Things eventually quieted down a little. Still, I can't help think that the rules hold plenty of items which can be used to show a spammer that he's doing things the wrong way.

So I can't help think that there are quite a few rules which we can refer to.

I personally don't mind people who advertise, only when in that unnecessary excess does it annoy me =P
Although this more recent reply of yours doesn't really go against what the main discussion of the Advertisements section is about, which is adding in a time limit for those to follow. Just to not cause drama when warning players of their spam =P (Unless you're trying to support the near-constant advertising of players , there's still more to think about, such as what the time limit is to be. You're more so concerned about a very long wait time, when it could most likely end in just 30, 20, or even 10 minutes =P)

Well, it is. Here's the thing: I understand your point, and to some extend also agree with it.

But as I demonstrated a few times earlier I don't believe this issue can be dictated by server rules. Not without ticking off quite a few people.

An ad every 5 minutes can be spammy in the mornings and just plain out advertising in the evening.

Now, pardon me for calling you out here a bit but... First I asked what the need was. Answer was more or less "if there wasn't one this thread wouldn't be here" and later you mentioned the issue with spammers. In the mean time I referred to some rules which I think could also be useful to point out to spammers but I couldn't help notice that you more or less ignored that. And kept going for the time limit.

At this point, I am going to be honest here, I can't help wonder.. Is this really about having a leverage to point spammers to the rules in order to making them to stop or is this about getting a full clearance to advertise within a predetermined amount of time?

No offense, no accusations, but just an honest comment. When re-reading this entire thread (I always do that with important matters) I can't help wonder....

Edit:

Now, for the record; I don't think a time limit would be a bad thing perse. But I do think there's much more to this. One issue being the time period, but also the different servers. Advertising within 1 minute between smp1, 2 and 3 wouldn't be picked up a spamming. Or it could but it'd be very hard.

If you want clarity here then my personal preference would be the inclusion that when several (2 / 2+) players warn you about stuff then you're probably doing something wrong.

And all of a certain we have the alt issue: some players have 12 alts

1 ad per 20 ninutes, per server and with 1 account only (no alts).

I don't think the per server rule is fair (people who "hop ad" usually don't bother players) because spamming is usally picked up on the same server. Yet if you don't include this... "I'm not spamming this is my first ad on this server". Then you log off, and back on again and.....

In the end I don't believe this is easily regulated, let alone enforced...

Nope. You have just given a perfect example. All these other rules can be twisted and interpreted as they like. X7 and the others didnt need to have an involved conversation if a simple rule to only advertise every X minutes was given. It would have been a clear, you advertised again within X minutes, that is spam. No argument, just clear set rule. You have gone to the No Drama rule instead of using a clear X minutes rule that cannot be argued with.

The point here is that if someone is spamming and people feel that it is spam we would now have a clear rule that we can point to that saves drama and stops confusion. The current method is ambiguous and the interpretations from staff have been variable.

15 minutes seems fine to me. 30 might be too long for those only on for an hour or so a night. I actually doubt anyone would notice a message is spam if done every 15 minutes but anything less than that and we the spammed would have a way to have it stopped easily.

I'm going towards the time limit because that's what I have requested to be added =P. This thread was created for a need to redirect spammers to a rules stating how often they may advertise instead of just saying, "When you feel necessary". I rarely have anything to advertise, and if I do I don't remember to advertise on the servers till like 1+ hours later. Time limits are already recognized as per server (meaning if Player X advertises on SMP1 it means he can go on SMP3 and advertise again, just not on SMP1 again until x minutes has been reached), not trying to say 1 advertise per x minutes for all of EMC. Just having players telling you you're spamming doesn't mean you're actually spamming, it could have a 40 minute difference and they still get annoyed and call you out =P. This can be quite easily regulated/enforced, logs give time stamps of when each thing happens with a little bit of math you got what you need. It would of course only be enforced when a player feels the other is spamming though.

It seems you would prefer to make potential customers angry.

There's a give and take to this. I don't prefer anything.

Do you mean a separate chat window? Won't happen. You can turn econ chat if you like, /chat hide e. I prefer to leave it on so I can see ads, I just don't want to see the same ad every 5 minutes or less.

And that -sucks-. It does, but that's the thing with leaving ads on, much like if you turn on the television or the radio you will be exposed to advertisements while trying to watch/listen to the program.

As I said, this was talking to the spammer and then trying to find a set rule. Then going back and telling him he was losing customers by spamming.

Fair. Very fair.

I have now spent more time reading and replying to your post. A simple rule would save all that time as I would have just asked him, shown him the rule then /reported him if he continued. In other words, you just provided justification for having a set rule.

The problem is, getting a specific rule to have a standard for this kind of thing is very difficult to do. I can slap a rule on anything and enforce it, that doesn't necessarily mean it will be efficient or sensical, as said with it potentially doing more harm than good to enforce a 15-30 minute waiting period on advertisements per SMP. [15 maybe. 30 is a lot]. If you're focused, you can spend about 5-7 minutes advertising between SMPs. 10 if you get held up for questions. Someone who is grown may have the patience to wait, but again, this is a kids server, and kids can get anxious to re-advertise again until the desired effect (of sales). Just like you, they're playing a game. -A- rule over the issue may be considerate, 30 minutes is a lot though.

Overall, I think this is something that goes beyond the power of the average player.

I swear the advertising rule specifically used to be no UNSOLICITED advertising anyway? As in, you can't randomly advertise your shop, but if someone asks if someone sells an item, you can say you do. That technique definitely works for azoundria...