[POLL] chickeneer fixes the economy thread

Discussion in 'Marketplace Discussion' started by chickeneer, Jun 8, 2022.

?

SELECT MULTIPLE - Read the choices - explanations in post

YES - The server should intervene to improve the state of the economy 53 vote(s) 73.6%
NO - Everything is fine and no intervention is required - as close to vanilla as possible 10 vote(s) 13.9%
YES - I support the server buying certain non-farmable items 53 vote(s) 73.6%
NO - I do not support the server buying certain non-farmable items 10 vote(s) 13.9%
YES - The server may nerf bartering to help the economy of those items 26 vote(s) 36.1%
NO - Leave bartering mechanics alone 31 vote(s) 43.1%
YES - I enjoy occasional collectible only items 55 vote(s) 76.4%
NO - Every item must have a use or aesthetic benefit 10 vote(s) 13.9%
YES - Nerf enraged at difficulty 5 to be a similar challenge to vanilla mobs 15 vote(s) 20.8%
NO - Enraged at difficulty 5 is fine currently (with exceptions) 36 vote(s) 50.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. I do not believe fixing/improving the economy will make a significant difference on server activity levels. That is not the objective of this thread/poll. It is more like... I have a hard time telling someone that EMC is worth staying for, when one of the core aspects to the server is completely broken. This is not an isolated example of that, but small incremental fixes to that would make me more confident in telling people that we are worth sticking around for.

    Suggestions continue to be welcome.

    It is worth noting, based on preliminary results of the poll (will keep looking at it obviously) - the things that are split will be noticed and approach things in a way that compromises the two extremes. In general, polls are useful for gathering simple feedback without necessarily having the exact answer in mind. Gauge feelings early in the process.

    Specifically responding to the Raw Gold bartering solution. I am unsure of that as a valid solution - and isn't necessarily what I had in mind. It will be taken under consideration.
  2. You wouldn't be having that convo if focus were on server pop. The issues you're bringing up are a result of server pop and MC mechanics making everything practically farmable.
  3. What is server pop?

    Anyways. This thread is about the economy... and things that I can control. At the end of the day, EMC is a hobby for me in addition to my irl life and am going to focus on projects I enjoy and things I think will have a high value to effort ratio.
    crystaldragon13 likes this.
  4. Or just don’t interfere with vanilla mechanics. EMC already nerfs farms to an insane degree. The issue with our economy is that we don’t have enough active players to sustain a real economy.
    ThaKloned, Fred_TWK and Zomberina like this.
  5. Yeah, but as I've been told, that's not something Chickeneer can control, so I say just leave the economy completely alone then until the true issue is dealt with .
  6. You know. This whole circular reasoning has really got me frustrated now. Maybe I've wasted my time on this as a hobby if the owners won't even make the effort or enable others to take over and get things functioning again and on track like they used to be. I'm out for a bit.
    SoulPunisher and PetezzaDawg like this.
  7. I can't brain control people to be active... I think you have misunderstood something I said...
    FadedMartian and 607 like this.
  8. What exactly did you have in mind? It might be helpful to understand what kind of changes you were already considering before we make suggestions.
    607 and SoulPunisher like this.
  9. The poll is reflective of the question I wanted answered. Is Bartering mechanics "holy" and untouchable to tweak. Or can it be tweaked from vanilla to benefit an economy objective.

    I guess, I don't understand why Mojang took blocks that are widely available and easy to go out and mine up (good shop item candidate), to now be renewably sourced through bartering in a way that can be produced solely through afking which causes an economic crash on that particular item. Eliminating any need for anyone to ever mine it up.
    Tuqueque, FadedMartian and 607 like this.
  10. So much reading but many an idea worth the read.

    I myself enjoy the occasional auction but rarely do I go to player shops. I know a certain few people that make their money buying and selling. However when I’m in game the last thing I want to do with my time is bounce around from shop to shop buying and selling items. I prefer to explore and build mini bases or build a big base. Mining is fun when it’s for a purpose.
    I know the whole shtick of EMC is Economy and Survival. I’m more of the survival crowd. (Thought on this disrupted, will edit when it come back.)

    Maybe going forward someone mentioned (please don’t make me go back and find the specific line) a mineral mincer (feel like I butchered the name.. I’ve been gone from Neverland to long, my mind gone.) in shopworld. That’s a need idea but we need to get rid of the ones everyone is hoarding first.. From now on perhaps useful promos that should get used have a countdown time they can be used before they just poof and vanish. Say you claim that promo sword and you have 90 days to use it before it’s gone like a warranty 90 days or whatever durability whichever comes first. This will put a definite stop on hoarding of items. These new promos with a countdown could be sold in shopworld all the time. People need rupees to buy these set priced items. They’re useful and non permanent. People will be forced to participate in the economy in order to get their hands on them. (I feel like I’m forgetting some crucial stuff that should be said..) (I’ll edit that later too)
    VoidDistortion and chickeneer like this.
  11. I think you bring a valid point. One of my big hesitancies on adding powerful promos and stuff that is overpowered. Is that mending and unbreakable junk has eliminated the need to ever need to craft new tools/armor.

    To alter your suggestion (it is still a suggestion at this point), anytime we would do a promo temporary item - I would expect us to accompany it with a permanent collectible item.
    Tuqueque, 607 and VoidDistortion like this.
  12. [I have not read every single post and don't really feel like it so if something was already said here I'm sorry :p]

    As someone who has been in almost every "stage" of EMC, I have seen the good, the bad, and the mediocre of the EMC "economy." Now I put economy in quotes since as of recent, more like years, has been in my opinion beyond dead. With many people bringing this up time and time again, people coming to the same arguments and points, however nothing every gets done and the issue seems to be pushed onto the back burner. Now, the pot has been burnt on the bottom. I am glad you are taking a hard look at it from an administrator stance. With this set up out of the way, I will now elaborate my take on what I think we as a server should do to hopefully benefit the majority.

    Over the decade on EMC, I have flipped between the hoarder, survivalist, economist, etc. And I will say this, I believe hoarders should be the least on the priorities when it comes to who we need to appease. I'm all for history and collections, but I firmly believe that items, not just promos/rares, should have a purpose; all items should also serve a purpose. Now they may be a hyper niche role or usage, but a use nonetheless. The occasional fun item can be added, but even if it was a mundane use I believe it should have one. I have been rather disappointed by the most recent collections of promos/prizes (minus the Cookie Oven, which was a suggestion I made YEARS ago btw) and would love to see some niche tools/armor enter the market.

    With this in mind, I believe the following is a good alternative that I believe we should look into. A place where we could buy Vanilla+ items with the "Final" tag on them to prevent replication/fixing. Now, what do I mean by Vanilla+? I mean things like Efficiency VI+ pickaxes, Looting IV+ swords, Haste potions, etc. Items that are not completely broken to all hell, but are consumed and have a very specific use. With no mending on a pickaxe, you may mine quickly, however that trip is limited by the durability. This would remove rupees from the market-system and effectively delete the rupees, driving down inflation (little by little but it's a start right?). The prices of said item would be set so even if a player wanted to resell them, they would have to break even or sell for a loss, thus there is no benefit for them to resell these items. These consumable Vanilla+ items would be the "useful" counterpart to the cosmetic promotional items that can then be for fun and collections.

    However, the place I believe we need to innovate in has been utilized in many servers that include our style of economy. A server-hosted marketplace. (This suggestion I have seen on several servers, and not any particular one.) Said servers, have the "/ah" command or the Auction House command. There players put items up for sale with a specified price. This would allow "ghost shops" of sorts so players could sell items cross-server via the Auction House. This is also passive since I could put, lets say a pickaxe up for sale, then get notified when it sells. No management needed for the seller or the buyer end. This would also have the added benefit of new players having a sense of familiarity since many servers share that command. This would need to be regulated since players did tend to put "ads" in the Auction House, but I feel that is a task that can easily be thwarted with our staff team.

    All in all, I feel we need to stop focusing on the collectors and what is currently valued as rare and give alternatives to said items so perhaps they are only worth a lot due to age rather than use. With a few commands and item innovation, I feel this would steer EMC on the right track to where it once was. I can elaborate more in hyper-detailed points Chicken if you ever want that 8,000 page essay, however that may extend to EMC management as a whole that I briefly discussed with Krysyy for a bit. Regardless, I will link back to my previous suggestion of the Vanilla+ shop that I made over a year ago and bit thee farewell on this short essay. [https://empireminecraft.com/threads/suggestion-vanilla-shop.84305/]

    - Cyberazaz101
    Master of snad
  13. (was this said? I missed it explicitly stated = Assuming that the server buys the items as a rupee sink and the item then disappears: then... )
    Empire Shop can buy quartz ore - making quartz mining a thing again.
    Actually, just make that all the ores. I buy them from players not out of a need for them, but just to reward the effort of getting them. Won't hurt my feelings any and only suck I can buy.

    Dirt, cobble, stone, sand, gravel are basics that should not be in the Empire Shop, leave those in circulation.
    Neither should iron, gold, diamond, emerald blocks - very definition of farmable ones there.

    And maybe the things that have zero game use: poisonous potatoe
    607 and HazardousCode like this.
  14. That is the general idea in question. I would label it an item sink as it actually introduces more rupees.

    Exact implementation is not known, things are still at the point of - are these concepts even worth exploring more.
    607 and HazardousCode like this.
  15. In the poll I marked no for allowing the server to buy non farmable objects. I know in the poll it says certain non farmable items. My thought at the time of marking no on that at the time was that it would take away blocks that people would otherwise use in builds or upgrading armor/weapons. Now I’m not sure what certain non farmable items that would be.
    My thoughts may have changed slightly on the matter. I wasn’t thinking of the rupees gained but rather the loss of material. However the point of this thread is how to elevate half of the reason the server exists. Taking another thought at this the server does reset and with that a renewal of the non farmable items. Perhaps the right strategic layout for a server sell shop could work with a rotational menu and specials each month. Of course this might need senior staff to manually adjust signs and what not from month to month.

    However my concern about a server buying material from players could create a dependency that could eliminate the player to player experience of personalized player shops if all a player needs to do to is sell certain non farmables to the server and vote to gain rupees. For me half the fun is the interaction/atmosphere everyone brings in game and on the forums. IDK cause sometimes all the fun I have is the interaction and the survival. Rupees to me means I can participate in auctions not really shops. I do use shops when I’m in a bind and need something quicker than mining it would take. Perhaps my fear is invalid and it’s just fine. Maybe upping the daily log in rupees is an option. Maybe keep it at a cap and just up the it to 500 rupees instead instead of the 100 amount.
    Even yet the shop can buy the claimed /promo when it’s available to be bought in /shopworld that way you have rupees coming in without the hoarding of promos by players trying to buy them all up when it’s first released.
  16. No worries. There is a lot of nuance hidden behind each of these questions depending on the direction I could take with them.

    It is worth noting - that I don't really plan for the Server to SELL any of those same blocks. So it would be a one way trip to the void. (I mean it could sell them, just wasn't part of my current vision). More of to give a purpose to those mined blocks that require real work to obtain but due to farming or limited aesthetic use, just gathers dust.

    To give a preview of the other major thought I had. Not virtualization of shops - but creating a registration system to semi-automatically make specific blocks/items easier to be found. Instead of just the basic /shop command.
    I don't want to discuss that idea further... As when I have in mind is doable (in terms of code) - and any additions to the idea will be make it too complicated...
    HazardousCode likes this.
  17. When I say server sell shop I’m meaning the server is buying not selling. That’s just the way I think. To me server buy shop sounds more like a place to buy than sell at.. if that makes sense.
  18. I understand why you thought that. On the other hand, I was thinking of the server as the entity doing the action. I see why you could read 'buy' and think that the players are doing the buying.
    607 and AncientTower like this.
  19. wtb automated bartering lol
  20. I just did a bit of bartering to try understand and I don't see the issue with it.

    The most expensive item you can get there is obsidian, and one stack of gold blocks gave me less than a stack of obsidian, and I had to stay there almost an hour.
    In the same amount of time I could have mined a few stacks with an end pillar.

    Am I missing something? Is the problem the other blocks you get?
    607 and HazardousCode like this.