[Suggestion] Ban *PM* me offer sales on the forums.

Discussion in 'Suggestion Box Archives' started by Biscuitboy, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. How do you know that most people aren't scammers? You can't because you have never looked at the inbox of the seller to see all the real and faux bids that he claims are coming in.
    bitemenow15 likes this.
  2. you are correct selling with negotiation is not an auction however this was not the case in the two or three threads i have seen pop up like this.

    these threads are not negotiating but relying on subterfuge to get an unfair advantage over the buyer and potentially keep an "auction" running forever. my proposal was to make it so that these types of "silent auctions" as i dubbed them still fit more relaxed community guidelines while protecting the supplier and the bidder alike.

    i understand where you are coming from m4nic you think my stance is one of overprotection and i can see how it might look that way but really it is simplification to a new and confusing way of doing things. if rules arent set in place for new things and are allowed to run willy nilly it will get out of hand and be reported countless times in which case said new thing will be closed pending harsh restrictions.

    essentially the same thing happened with mob arena. so think not of this discussion as "big brother is watching" think more of it as your favorite uncle is guiding you from a distance :)
    Biscuitboy5396 likes this.
  3. Also, unlike Big Brother, EMC's goals are to make the gaming experience as pleasurable for all players as possible and EMC gains no benefit from regulating commerce.
    bonzd67, apamment and bitemenow15 like this.
  4. That's a very interesting idea. :)
    Let's assume for a moment that in a community, most people are scammers, i.e. they will usually try to go behind someones back when they see an opportunity.
    In such situation, would a "No 'PM me your offer' sales in the forum" be a good rule? No!
    - The culture of that community would be such, that most people do (try to) scam and that it is considered normal. A rule against scamming would be against the community, it would obviously hurt the most!
    - The rule would still target just one out of many many opportunities to scam, it would still only complicate things without significant merit.
    - BTW, when most of the people do something, it is considered normal and not bad (example: choosing a low fat diet), so that "scamming" wouldn't be scamming any more - which contradicts the assumption.

    So, either way, I don't think that would be a good rule.

    Another thing is, that by making rules, you don't only organize a community, you also define it, and one can tell about nature, mentality and culture of a community by the rules it has (or needs). If we would have rules all over the place that are aimed to prevent this or that opportunity to scam, people would very well notice that and would start to think about EMC as bad and endangered community, one that needs such rules. That would have negative effects on the people - for example fear of being scammed - and would hurt the community.

    Hence (IMO), the best rule is "no scamming" - everything else is superfluous.
    Warn a scammer, ban if repeated, let people know what happened. Isn't that enough?
  5. Any easy way to scam via PM is to tell people to offer through PMs, and then lie to them about how someone else is offering higher until they decide that they won't pay Xr for an item. Then, the scamming player can just say the the other person backed off. In my opinion, it is even worse and much harder to deal with than players who are illegally bidding on their own auction to get it to a higher price.

    I agree that PM offer sales should be stopped. The only way I think it could work is if there were rules to make it so that it all be centralized on one PM, with a mod invited for obvious reasons. Still though, that just isn't worth the diversion of staff "resources" for tiny sales.
  6. What you describe here is a one among many more or less well known selling / advertising / persuasion techniques. They are widely used in a more or less obvious manner. In the end, the buyer decides to take the offer or not.

    The buyer should really know better. There is an principle called -> Cavet Emptor, meaning "Buyer beware!"

    That the seller is lying about competing offers is a violation of (presumably expected) obligation to negotiate in good faith. It makes that seller a liar, but that alone it is not enough to make the deal a scam. Why doesn't the buyer ask for proof or check the price herself/himself?

    What I'm saying is, that it is not desirable to protect buyers through restrictive actions, but it is highly desirable to protect immature persons through education. There is no need for additional rules besides the basic ones: no griefing etc. What would be good is to mention this in Marketplace Rules & Guidelines.

    Again, if you try to protect distinct people (or a community) by taking away the need to learn and understand, you will actually harm them in the long run.

    (I always remember the "microwaved pet" legend. It goes like this: An elderly woman tries to dry a pet in a microwave and the pet dies. Should the manufacturer be fined because the users' manual does not mention living animals? Should the woman be fined for cruelty against an animal? ... Nothing will save you from the need to learn and understand. No chance.)
    ZBSDKryten likes this.
  7. i still dont see how what bite is talking about limits the vast majority, all it does is prevent the few ppl who try to circumvent the auction rules from being able to.
  8. o,o'.. I spend the weekend in Eorzea and come back to Empire noticing there are new mods.. Congrats on the moderator-ship whenever it happened.. xD
  9. Did I miss something? (I was on vacation for 2 weeks.) What is the new way, what is the proposal?

    AFAIK, auction rules are just for the "Community Auctions" forum. (?)

    BTW, what I intended to do is to ask for best offers for stuff and then sell to the person who made the highest offer, but for the price of the 2nd highest offer, or a preset price if there was only one offer.
  10. the new way was a thread that popped up saying im selling a horse pm me OFFERS and i will accept the highest BID (aka clearly an auction) since it was an auction by definition:
    1.
    a public sale in which goods or property are sold to the highest bidder.
    it violated the auction rules by only auctioning a single horse as well as a little player drama so it was deleted. however other "silent auctions" like these have popped up in the past on forums and thus the thought to manage and regulate such things came about. i understand you want players to be more mindful and resourceful but rules are not put into place to hinder law abiding citizens/players they are put into place to protect those people from people that will scam/cheat/grief/steal and thus when they are violated said players can be punished appropriately.

    if as you suggest we simply ignored this new style then what is to prevent a player from saying something to the point of "well the rules dont implicitly state _________" and being entirely right bonum autem pauci is the phrase i believe
  11. It is a natural, common practice to do that, it is how the business is usually done.
    It is an invitation for offers, I don't see any problem with it.

    I guess it wasn't under "Community Auctions." (?)

    So "player drama" was a problem. But why?
    There will always be players who like to participate in a little drama, the overzealous, the ones under pressure, the trolls, the bored, the wanna-bes ... Who has a problem with it and why?

    Sounds like need to (over-)regulate, keep under control, keep in check. Is it a sign of fear?

    So restricting invitations for offers would protect people by removing one possible way of fraud/scam?

    Sure, an invitation for offers is a perfectly acceptable way of initiating a business. It is not, and should not be a violation of any rules. (Because that would be very unnatural - and considered harmful.)
  12. Hmm, I see how this is technically an auction, and should be banned, in this form.

    However, I think a seller should be allowed to do something like I'm selling x for 1000r or nearest offer, so the buy can either buy at the upper price or make a lower offer and if the seller agrees then sell it.

    One of the reasons for all the rules is to protect the players, a lot of whom are under 15 and under and might be a little more naive than most. Protecting buyers is good. There is no reason someone would need to do an invitation of offers as opposed to an auction unless they wanted to keep things secret - and the only reason you would want to keep it secret is to try and wring a better deal for yourself via dishonesty - either by scamming with fake buyers or simply misleading someone to it's value who might otherwise be unaware.
    bitemenow15 likes this.
  13. Mods can read forum conversations? That's.. New to me? Is there anywhere we can talk where staff can't read? Except for external chatting stuff.
  14. We would require one the players to invite us to the conversation in order to see them.
    jkjkjk182 likes this.
  15. Nope, they are ALWAYS watcing you.... and listening to you.... scary stuff man. For all we know they stalk you IRL too... jk yo : P
    jkjkjk182 and apamment like this.
  16. Oh lol.
  17. Eh, I too would like to see prices so I could know if what I am paying is the items worth.
  18. I'd say it is "technically" not an auction, but has one similarity to auctions - the best offer (which generally does not have to be the highest - or the lowest) will get the deal. Contrary to auctions, there is no fixed time span, no fixed starting price, no fixed amount of goods (you can ask for discount if you buy double amount or ask to buy just half of it), no fixed count of deals etc.

    Sure. That's a kind of invitation for offers - or invitation to treat / invitation to bargain.
    What would be the benefit in restricting invitations for offers / bargain to just that form?

    This is a problem that needs attention, but I think it is wrong to answer it with restriction of (such basic things) like invitation to bargain. I don't think that this actually does any good to the immature part of EMC in the long run.
    If they would be bared them from offers / trade / marketplace, it would actually be disservice to them. Only one of the reasons: they would be deprived from a nice chance to learn and develop.

    Sorry, but that's nonsense.
    There are many very good and honest reasons to make invitations to bargain. Actually any advertising is an invitation to bargain: invitation to negotiations without obligation.
  19. Ok, but why the need for secrecy via PMs?

    Let their parents and teachers help them develop. EMC is a business, if it doesn't take care of its customers, they'll leave.

    Name one good reason why doing it secretly (ie, via PMs) would be more beneficial than doing it openly on the forums or in public chat that isn't dishonest.

    I think you're assuming we're against all forms of "invitation to bargain" but I think it's just those done secretly, where someone more knowledgeable can't interject and say, hey it's not worth nearly that much.
    IcecreamCow likes this.
  20. The truth is that we are playing a game. EMC has members of a large range of ages and we play to have fun (most of us). You may think that there should be little control by the Staff, but they are the governing voice and this is not a democracy. We are 1's and 0's playing on a server and to better everyone (as a whole)'s experience there should be no possibility to cheat in a fair system. To do so we need to make all commerce open to inspection as to make sure everyone is trading, playing, communicating fairly because we are not trading stock or selling houses, we are playing a game, so if you think it's fair to potentially manipulate someone who may be naive and not think that they can be scammed, than maybe you should bring your knowledge concerning trading to people who are trying to get ahead in life, not have fun in a game.