Have an issue? Let's Talk :)

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by IcecreamCow, Feb 23, 2014.

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  1. I am able to, yes.
    Equinox_Boss and Cchiarell6914 like this.
  2. Kephras, I'm on my phone so not able to directly quote and respond in sections, but I'll respond in general.

    I definitely didn't respond to things in the best fashion in the past, I will fully admit that.

    I have, as you appear to have noticed, worked hard on improving.

    I'm not exactly sure the context of the group chat threat, I would not make a public message over say, but I'm not saying I didn't warn you either.

    The main concern with the feedback with the survival update was that some were saying to just completely revert it instead of ideas how to improve it, and that personally bothered me.

    Again I could have responded better and I apologize for any roughness of my past, but just wanted to state my view of it.

    As for charge back thing, icc covered well but it was information I felt players really needed to know before they go buying without permission or look at it as an easy way to steal perks or rupees.

    I took over emc with an empty balance and needed to protect myself in that initial month. But it is something players need to know anyways so it's not something to need removed.

    I will continue to work on my personality skills, but I just ask players to suggest changes to something Instead of demanding a full reversal, as that kind of feedback is very discouraging to me and kills motivation to continue.

    So please ssuggest things to make it better for everyone and I'll be happy and continue to work to make everyone happy :)
  3. And that was my word too. If I could just have read faster:p
  4. Thank You. IcC, Aikar, Max, and all the staff team, you guys are doing a great job. I imagine it must get rather frustrating at times listening to complaints when you guys are doing your best, so I have so much respect for you all that you'd be willing to open the floor to people to voice their complaints. Even if I haven't completely agreed with/understood %100 of the decisions made recently, I have complete and total trust that IcC/Aikar/Max are doing what they think is best for our community and that they are most likely right. I urge anyone with a beef against IcC or who's bugged by Aikar to come and let it be known politely and clearly, as Kephras did, so that EMC as a community can deal with those issues and become stronger together.
  5. Hey IcecreamCow, I have an issue and I want to talk. :p

    This is related to what Kephras has said about the monitoring of chat.
    When I started out on EMC I understood that Town Chat was monitored by staff (through Square, while the staff may or may not be visible to players) to prevent spam, ip advertizing, inappropriate chat etc. I agreed with this and thought it made sense. If I ever needed to talk to someone about a personal matter, I would do so in /tell, which I assumed would be more private and not monitored. I asked staff about this and they said only senior staff can look into /tell history, if there is a valid reason for investigation. I wasn't sure about Local and Res chat, but never asked about that and couldn't find it on the website either.

    Later Group chat was introduced. It seemed like this chat wasn't as actively monitored as Town chat, and it provided for an easy way to do /tell with multiple people. With the introduction of Group chat, the extent to which group chat was going to be monitored wasn't clearly stated, and I assumed it to be on the same level as /tells (e.g. only senior staff can look into the history when they have a valid reason for investigation). Because the amount of privacy given for the different chat channels isn't clearly stated on the EMC website, I found that other players around me also assumed that Group chat was private.

    Later I found out I was wrong. I learned that staff members can view Group chats across servers as easily as they can view Town chat in Square. (I still don't know about Local and Res chat >.< ). In one instance I was discussing criticism about the servers in group chat, and the next moment a staff member showed up at my res, joining in on the conversation. Now, I have nothing against any of the staff members at all. Personally, I think that group chat should not be monitored the way it is (will explain below), but staff has easy access to it in Square so they will. I understand that.

    Now, I would like to describe what I think would be the ideal case of dealing with Group chat on EMC and why. Hehe, sorry about the long post. :)
    Ideally, group chat should be not be actively monitored by all staff in real time and should be treated the same way as /tells. (As in, moderators simply don't have access to it in Square. And senior staff can not monitor it in real time, only view the history if necessary.) I think this makes sense, because Group chat is actually the ONLY chat channel for which you personally have to agree to join. People are exposed to Town chat, Local chat, Res chat and even /tells involuntarily. If you want to protect the younger players from any chat abuse to which they may be exposed, I understand that especially Town chat has to be actively monitored and maybe Local as well (iffy about Res chat and a definite NO for /tells). If people are experiencing any harassment/intimidation/etc in group chat, I think it is sufficient for that player to take a screenshot of the chat, leave the group and report the people who did that. I think that provides sufficient protection for the player in case and there is no need for active monitoring.

    Now, it is easy for other people to say, "Well, if you don't want your conversations to be monitored, don't discuss private issues on EMC. Do it on skype/facebook/some other place, instead."
    I disagree with that, firstly, because while I am friends with people here and I like to talk to them, and I'd rather not give out any personal contact info to them because I only know them to a certain degree and if possible, I'd like them to not know me outside of EMC.
    Secondly, I think that this is more of a moral issue and I love EMC so it would like to see it do things well business wise, community wise, and also morally so it may set an example to the rest of the internet. So ignoring an issue like this by avoiding it altogether, does not seem like an appropriate solution to me.
    Thirdly, I have often had other people (not me!) come to me in group chat and discuss their private matters with me. Simply, because they did not know Group chat was not private. If you came to me about your relationship, family, personal situation, thinking it was safe to talk, while actually your chat was being read by one (two? three?) staff members at the same time, without you knowing, how would that make you feel? I've seen staff members speak up when EMC was being criticized in group chat, showing that they were reading group chat. But what if they're just quietly watching when you're talking about something deeply personal? I only hope our staff is mature enough and has enough moral sense and integrity to not watch a conversation like that when they're glancing over chat in Square.

    Part of this problem could have been avoided by providing clear information on the website about the extent of chat monitoring that is being done on EMC for the different chat channels. (Res and Local chat info, anyone? :p) And by providing more info about Square. But ideally I would like to see this part of Square changed. Or at least discussed. >.<
  6. I think a lot of people will have issues right now, but they'll vary from not liking a feature to not liking the direction EMC has gone in to not liking the new management. It just depends how you address that fact.

    For me, when Aikar said something along the lines of: "I want EMC to be my income source" I knew that things were going to go down a route I wouldn't agree with.

    It meant the gradual monetisation of EMC, which has already been stated in the last list of promises which said there would be an extra type of currency added to the game, if I read it correctly. This monetisation has already started to show itself indirectly in the monster that is now voting. With large sums of Rupees available for clicking a few buttons a new player has little incentive to go out and start resource gathering when their first day voting alone could buy a rather nice stack of supplies from any reasonable store.

    This then has the circular effect of shop supplies dwindling now that the Wild is that bit more dangerous to gather in, not to mention the wonky spawn code which still has mobs spawning in high light levels, or spawning right in front of you.

    Other things that I have issues with:

    - Promises

    Promises made that have still to materialise over one and a half years later. Features shouldn't be announced or even hinted at until it's almost ready to launch in my own, humble opinion, unless you can give a short turnaround. A lot of people got fed up and left or went into hibernation because of the DT muckaround. Then more promises were made, timelines were pushed back and I swear I saw a post saying it would be launched by the end of 2013.

    I feel it's unprofessional. A promise is only as good as when it is kept. We don't need to know what's in the timeframe for the next year. Tell us as and when something is ready to launch. That way the surprise is kept and we don't get frustrated waiting months, years, for something to appear.

    - New mobs

    At what point did someone think it was reasonable and sound to have a mob that sucked you in through layers of solid material? If that's the best way you have of stopping people from camping these mobs safely, then more work needs to be put into the design process to find a more suitable route. Even something as simple as making it so that Momentus can't be hurt by arrows (Because he's so big) means players will need to get in close.

    Also, Enraged Mobs. Enraged Creepers in particular. Lets have it explode with fire. I watched a large portion of my village burn to the ground thanks to an EC being aggro'd (For reasons I never found out) when I wasn't near it, and the fire caused widespread damage that I could do nothing to stop. (Couldn't even see where the EC was, just heard it repeatedly explode)

    On one hand EMC says: "Build in the Wild", whilst on the other hand it says: "But we'll punish you if you do."
    When Wild claiming comes in, it really needs to have its protected area mob free as well, or at least have it as a toggle option.

    - Voting

    As mentioned. Rupees are getting flung about with wild abandon just to get that next vote to get more players in to hopefully get more Supporters to provide that income source initially stated. At what cost? This isn't the real world economy. We have infinite resources. A shop with high prices simply doesn't sell anything. People have so much money from voting now they can buy whatever they want and empty a store over a period of days or weeks without selling a single thing.

    EMC is a business. I get that. The second the decision was made to use Supporter money to pay for the server, it became a business. We need Supporters to keep the servers running. I've been all three levels on this and an Alt account as well, and I had no problems paying it. Now, I'm not, because I feel that there is less and less consultation before new features are added, which with an active Forum community of this size is relatively feasible to do.

    Take for instance Dragon Tombs, again. This udpate is the bane of my life. I've been in the Wild since, wow, the Jungle Biome release (when was that?), before the Wild was reset to accommodate these changes. I have been patiently sat waiting with Fallon Dale for this long promised protection, but if you ignore the repeatedly pushed back timeline, the goalposts keep changing too and I've now given up hope and have opened my village without any other protection than what our sterling team of Moderators can provide against idiots and griefers.

    It's went from: "Kill a Dragon to get a Dragon Egg to claim Wild land" to now where we've got to grind Enraged Mobs to get these Dragon Fragments to make Dragon Stones to go fight the Dragon to get (from reading that last update) Challenge Tokens which we can trade for a Dragon Egg or other stuff. At this point, I'm asking myself what else will change in the interim?

    Bah.

    I've tried other servers and I've found better servers, but it's the friends I have here that keep me here, and the time I've invested. If I didn't have my Frontier Village I would've left a long time ago, but I've opened it to residents now in the hope that it will change EMC for me for the better.

    Since Aikar has taken over and stated he wants EMC to be his income source, it's gone through changes towards that, and I think, at least, I certainly feel, that the Community itself has been pushed to the side slightly in the way that new features are brought in before anyone decides to find out if we, the Community, want them.
    True, some decisions are best made without consultation, but taking the Enraged Mobs for example, I'm pretty sure a Community Consultation would've highlighted that hey, we don't want something that sets fire to the area around it if you want us to build in the Wild.

    Anyway.

    I also just wish some people would learn a bit of modesty and be more humble about their abilities.
    It's almost as if some statements are made with the intention of setting teeth on edge. It borders on braggadocio.

    Apart from that, my greatest respect to those that make up Team EMC. :)
    xI_LIKE_A_PIGx, ewils, 607 and 14 others like this.
  7. Can you please contact me privately about this matter? Chat/Square is certainly not meant to be used this way. It would be best to give me the details privately so I can look into it and make sure it's not going on more than it has. Thanks for letting me know, as well.
  8. xD
    Equinox_Boss likes this.
  9. As I said in my initial post, if I hadn't seen improvement, I wouldn't be here debating the point. For all my complaints, EMC is still the best Minecraft server I know, and your talents with server coding are a big chunk of that.

    I don't want to turn this thread into another debate over that infamous update, but I will say that it killed the joy of wilderness living for me, pure and simple. That left a pretty bitter feeling that still hasn't gone away, but if you look back through my posts you'll see that I never asked for it to be reverted. I may not have said directly at the time, but I know that update was a lot of work for you and it brought a ton of new possibilities to the table. I fully understand that being told "eew, this sucks, get rid of it," would be pretty disheartening, after all that effort. Not enjoying it does not mean I don't appreciate the toil involved.

    I suppose if I have any advice or suggestions, it's simply this: Don't be defensive. I'll be the first to admit it's sometimes very difficult to have your work criticized, and only gets harder the more effort you put into it. I've modded games myself, I know that trap well. But you can never afford to allow your pride cloud your judgement or color your responses to critique - now moreso than ever.
    607, NZScruffy, Equinox_Boss and 3 others like this.
  10. I think my problem with EMC is the members who think they are cool, because they are simply rich or have a ton of promos. I think it has gotten out of hand. I have seen this mostly with Gold and Diamond supporters, as they think they're big, hot cheese. This is not only diamond and gold supporters, but I have seen the majority have them. I'm getting seriously sick of people being submissive, towards others just because they are rich or are popular. It's getting old.

    I have been on EMC for almost two years now, and I'm going to be honest: this issue has gotten worse. There were never so many "Well-Known Members" like there are today. Now, some "Well-Known Members" are trying to step up (like you should) and trying to do what a moderator would normally do. This is good to a certain point. Then it just becomes ridiculous and makes them appear as if they are control freaks.

    I know this post will create tension between me and of those who may be offended (which I'm not trying to do) and those of which who think I am wrong. I don't care what you say to me, as I am entitled to my opinion, as well as everyone else.

    -Cc
  11. Hey Keph!,

    I really felt obligated to post here. I want some people to understand, that EMC and its staff has grown to size now, there is a large mix of personalities, and more importantly, people that have been involved with EMC at different times. I have been a mod on EMC for a very long time. I have seen a lot change. The biggest shell shock to me however, would be the official switch from Justin to Aikar. Aikar and I, if no one knew this, are quite strong opinionated people. Two of those people in any room, and then throw in some disagreement, you have some crazy battles. Aikar and I have butted heads, I have scrutinized his ideas way more than any player has before an update has come out, or gone public, I have felt ignored with my own ideas in the past. I have never made it a secret to Aikar or Jeremy about the lack of... finesse in Aikar's delivery method.

    This was not ALL Aikar's fault. It's like if you change bosses. Maybe you didnt even like the boss before hand, but you had grown accustomed to how things were done. Then a long comes the new outside hire Boss, who has a different view, a different goal, a different way of doing things. Its often hard to adjust to that even in real life. I can tell you that every issue that has been brought up by the players of EMC for just about every update since Aikar stepped in, has only been an amplified version for things I say in IRC or equivalent.

    Like you mention in your post, its not that I have a dislike for Aikar, but for the longest time I have personally felt that he lacked to proper leadership skills and delivery to really do what he was doing. Coupled with the fact that I was just going through the large change of Justin -> Aikar.

    This is all leading up to a point. Bear with me.

    I have voiced my opinions about Aikar to him directly, multiple times. I have shared them with close friends who deal with as well. And I will say something that I think you should research and take notice.

    The last <Month, Aikar has made greater strides to provide something from his position that blends more with what EMC already was. His relationship with the community and how handles it, has definitely improved. His focus is two fold than that of his focus not even 5 or 6 months ago. He is being more open with the players, sharing what is happening, trying to keep the masses entertained, while at the same time, giving a more listening ear to the staff.

    I can say this confidently, and I hope it has more weight after explaining in small detail the personal struggle I have had with this transition, that I feel like EMC is going to be ok. That Aikar had to find his spot. IceceamCow is a very close friend of mine now (after I became staff, if that helps ease anyone out there), and I know how well he handles the Community part. He is an amazing community leader, and there are things that some of you may never see to understand just how great of a talent he has for this. He has (as he posted) been the guiding wind for a changing Aikar. I feel comfortable, which is nice, because the last year... has been a tough time as a 'legacy' mod. I hope that you stick around, at least give it a little more time to ferment. Grapes into Wine... just give it time. Is everything 'fixed'? Will every decision made be a popular one? No, but do I feel more comfortable in the respect I trust Aikar to weigh each action before executing it? Yes. Thats a big step for me, and I feel, Kephras, you are not much different.
  12. Actually, the issues have been greatly going down compared to months ago. We've been more active with new features and releases now than any time in EMC's existance, including when Justin and I got the ball rolling.

    I believe it was more, of 'I need' more than 'I want'. Aikar with the help of his extra programmers now is knocking great things out like crazy. There's hardly any complaints other than the occasional bug here and there that can be fixed, and this is with Aikar still having his full time job. Imagine the growth and potential of what we will become when he has more and more time to dedicate to EMC.

    This is a very simple matter. Money spent on EMC is at your own discretion and choice. You can or you don't have to, it's 100% up to you. The money goes to Starlis LLC which is distributed how it has to be to get things done. If you don't count the man hours of Aikar coding as something as valuable as the servers themselves, I'm not quite sure how I can make you happy on this one.

    Also, since when did it become a bad thing for someone to work their butt off on something to make thousands of people happy and be able to make a living from it. That's the American Dream right there. Not everyone is from America I know, but here we kinda promote that idea as a way of life. :)

    I personally see this as a good thing for a survival server, but to each their own on that one.

    100% agree. This is a hard lesson we learned and we're not going to deny it was a mistake. We've learned from it and will do better from now on. You can tell that we've in the past months been living up to this as well. :)

    This is something that's not an issue of EMC, but one of personal preference. I've heard arguments on both sides. Some love the new mobs and some hate them. You are the second one and I'm sorry.

    As per your request above, we won't have details on this until we're closer to it's release, but we'll likely have discussions about it as we get closer. :)

    These changes were made at the request and discussion of the community with a thread Aikar made. It has a solid plan in place, just has to give it time to work itself out.

    Again, this is the opposite of what's been happening. 90% of the new features are ones that have been requested over time by the players. What you're saying is a problem is actually non-existent in the past month or two and we have forward progress from here out. :)

    I can't really make you happy on this one. This is simply a custom feature we're putting together piece by piece to be fun. So far we've had really only one complaint about the Dragon Fragments in this post. I'm not sure anyone has had anything to say about it that wasn't fun.

    The final paragraph here I can't see as truth. I've only seen the opposite and people having way more fun here than they've had in a good year. I'm sorry you personally aren't able to enjoy it as they are and wish there was something we could do to help with it, but it seems to boil down to a different style in what you want to play.
  13. Couple of quick replies to points well made in no particular order:

    1 - I forgot to mention that I am a big fan of the mini-update threads. More of these earlier on would've probably avoided many of the problems I perceived.

    2 - No, nothing at all against someone making money from doing what they do and would fully expect it, but obviously, when someone needs as you put it, their income to come from something, then measures will be put in place that may not have happened had it simply been a secondary source or self-funding. If Aikar can make a living on EMC, good stuff, but I hope that doesn't come at the expense of the player experience or community feeling.

    3 - Some of my feelings might be outdated with current changes in place, but I've drawn back slightly from the forums because of how I feel so may have missed things. I'll have a good look around and see if I can't change my perception on some issues.


    In terms of some things like the Enraged's it's a Catch 22 as currently not many people live in the Wild full time, so there aren't many people who truly appreciate the full extent of the damage that can be caused by something that bursts into flames. :D

    On that same note though, I suppose London went through the same thing in 1666. I shall keep more space between my buildings from now on!

    Cheers for the reply. I just had to rant. Right or wrong rants, I feel better for it. :D
    xI_LIKE_A_PIGx, 607, mba2012 and 4 others like this.
  14. Don't worry..be happy :)
  15. This is the best part! although this thread was created for other reasons - it has created a unique opportunity for people to air out their opinions, clear the air on how people feel. Transparency can be very difficult, but as we can see today is VERY important.
    607 and Equinox_Boss like this.
  16. I can promise you, it will be the opposite. Aikar and I over the years have disagreed about a LOT of things. I refuse to talk to him about his political affiliation any more, lol. However, one thing he and I can agree on is doing things right. We know that if EMC is to get to a point where it can have full time work done on it, it has to be in a way that the community wants it, otherwise it simply won't work.

    EMC is in good hands, I promise.
    607, Equinox_Boss, BevK56 and 3 others like this.
  17. I sent the book a little over half an hour ago and also explained in it that I honestly had no intentions of sending it to any staff member as I was just rambling and was planning on leaving it to zombie pigmen and blazes in my outposts fortress.. It was also written over several days so it may seem random.. Like my survival journal in my Hardcore World, A Simple Death.
    NZScruffy and Equinox_Boss like this.
  18. I have my opinions too...

    For our sake, can you enable "bad words" into private message. I do not see the point that we cannot use some words when we both do not care. Perhaps an option to toggle this. Both people have to toggle it on for it to happen, of course.

    Enraged Mobs. I am hoping this comes out during one of the Dragon Tomb phases because I feel it is not right to release an idea, and complete the idea a few months later. I want the Idea to come out all in one update, thread about the thoughts, and then configure it so we are all happy.

    Dystopia. It is a long awaited feature much like Dragon Tombs. It was announced quite a while ago and not much can be said about how it will be. The little Empire status could be set up as so

    IcecreamCow, what happened to the Empire Wiki videos?

    I already brought this up to ICC and Aikar and I will do it again.

    Hate to say it, but this is a lie. It used to be a nice feature up until May 5th 2012.


    Now for thy Wiki. Yes, it is your turn.
    Dragon Tomb Items. Not in the Custom Items, where is it? Just simply add a section.

    • Dragon Tombs
      • Dragon Stone Fragment
      • Dragon Stone

    Also, ask Aikar about the Enraged Monsters.
    Cannot find out how much Damage the Enraged Skeleton does. Or even how many hearts it has.


    To me, the Wiki should tell me everything I need to know about the Empire. For it is a Wiki. Right now it pretty much tells me the drop rates and the obvious stuff.



    Back to general


    Please have the Mini updates on one thread. I cannot keep updates on the updates due to the fact I cannot subscribe to forums.

    Suggestion Box needs love. I keep seeing reposted suggestions and people keep saying "I read the already suggested ideas" and I realize they are right. That has not been updated in a while now. Jack Biggin, I am begging YOU to please rush that thread. Also: Encourage people to read the Track.



    To wrap this up.

    Aikar, I am noticing you are getting more involved in the forums. I am noticing you are actually replying to Suggestions now to give people closure. I also love that you are actually making normal threads like us.


    Cow, you a great Community (Leader?) and I applaud you for trying your best. I love your Mega Death battle things and such.

    Whoever controls the Twitter/Facebook: Please start doing more things on the Facebook page. I am seeing pictures (sorry to say) that I can care less about (not asking to remove it, as it entertains others) and news that I already see on the website. Why not give us some Facebook/Twitter only updates so there is actually a reason to follow you guys.

    All in all, I love this server and some things are just bothering me. There is probably more but I forgot them. I love most of the Staff team and their dedication and wish to stay in this Community, but there are just some things that are a bit hard to love.
  19. Yeah...
    #textwall
    Equinox_Boss and Curundu like this.
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