[Feature Discussion] Empire Shop Update v2

Discussion in 'Empire News' started by Aikar, Jul 12, 2012.

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  1. I've already mentioned ideas to combat anti competitive behaviors such as undercutting..

    Also, our prices are on such miniscule scales you cant charge "1 silver less/1 penny" and get the top slot. an undercut in minecraft can mean a gigantic loss of profits, which someones going to then buy and resell for profit.

    Also, you underestimate the power of laziness... Anyone who has money and wants to build something will usually buy some of the materials to save them time, just as I described between Max and I above...

    Laziness drives economy of the "high supply, high demand" items, and that is what minecraft is full off..

    This is a town focused server, where people prefer to not go into the wild, and just stay in town. Right now many players get by with the current system and just buy the materials they need. They play the economy to make money, or live off daily income, but not bother much with the manual labor...

    What do you think will happen when we make it even easier for people to do that?... more people will do it.

    Also in WoW, mass supply items like Enchanting Dust and cloth is still a hot item on the AH. The price fluxautes constantly with Supply and Demand.

    The items in Minecraft are essentially the same thing as Enchanting Dust in WoW: Always in Demand, Always in Stock...

    It doesn't matter that its unlimited. It will ALWAYS be needed. Look at wood... Shop owners struggle to keep wood stocked because it is always in need... There will always be new players, new buildings, new ideas. Materials will always be needed.

    Also about auctions in WoW... I was a very wealthy person. I "owned" sections of the AH. I lived in town. I rarely ever used the auction feature. Everything I did was buy out... Auctions are not the primary use of the Auction House in WoW, Market like features are.

    "I want it now" powers many people. The ability to buy everything you need quickly, and "just get to it" on building your goal, is what many players want, and thats what will keep the economy flowing.
    Aikar, Jul 16, 2012
    #141
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  2. There will be more supply than anyone can effect by buying and selling at higher prices. There needs to be something in place to stop prices from going to low. There is currently nothing that will.
    melodytune, Jul 16, 2012
    #142
  3. Melody brings up a good point. I have played a game where there are merchants that both buy and sell items. When selling these items to other players, it's customary to ask for the average between the two prices. We don't have a place here like a merchant where we can always sell items, so there is no control on it in that respect.

    On the other hand, I mostly like the new shop interface. I expect price corrections, but I also feel that they'll moderate themselves. Once the price of an item has gotten low enough, I just won't bother to produce or sell it. If enough people think the same way about that item, the price people are willing to pay will go up too.

    What I worry about more is stagnation, where so many people have the same price on items that my shop gets buried. In this case, I could constantly tweak my prices to try and make them more likely to show in the top results, but I'll probably fall back on the old reliable Town chat instead.
    Pab10S, Jul 16, 2012
    #143
  4. Wouldn't the larger shops buying out the cheaper smaller shops be the thing that will stop prices from going too low?

    EDIT: If that doesn't work out naturally like I assume it will, I figure as a last resort, they could have /shop buy the items at a base price that nobody would price their items under.
    LZBZ_DW, Jul 16, 2012
    #144
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  5. I agree, there is nothing formally laid out to set price minimums for items. A study of economics suggests one is not needed, and even that fixing prices or price minimums is damaging to an economy. I suspect that if falling prices really were an issue, the administrators and moderators would be able to react quickly and figure out how to deal with it.
    I also agree that there will be some price fluctuation when the new market system goes online. That is only natural as suppy/demand issues straighten themselves out.
    Curundu, Jul 16, 2012
    #145
  6. Supply is not going to magically skyrocket with the new system... Some items already have trouble.

    There will still be cross server seperation of prices, keeping overall appearence of stock lower, and there will also be high fees for anyone who tries to undercut.

    2 people engaging in undercut wars will hurt themselves alot with fees. we can even look into things like "If you undercut, your item will not be visible on search for 12 hours".

    That right there will immediately stop 95% of people from undercutting... This is a defeatable problem (and holy crap, I love that idea I just came up with, it will def be used!)

    So heres what I currently got thought up as an Anti undercutting penalty:

    If your item costs less than the cheapest item on the market, and more than 5 people are selling the same item, then Your item will not show up on search or quickbuy for 4 * MODIFIER hours, but players who visit your shop manually can buy it it still.

    MODIFIER will be the count of how many times you've undercutted an item in the past week, not including current. If you undercut your first item, it will be not be hidden. undercut a 2nd, and itll be hidden for 4 hours. Then you go undercut another, itll be hidden for 8 hours, then again and itll be 12 hours.

    This applies the same as if you keep changing the price in an "undercut war".

    Simply listing the item the same price as the cheapest one in stock avoids all this and gives equal chances to everyone at that price.
    Aikar, Jul 16, 2012
    #146
  7. Wouldn't it be simpler to charge a fee each time you change your price? Allow the initial listing free, but charge a fee each time it's modified.
    Pab10S, Jul 16, 2012
    #147
  8. This raises too many questions. How much of a lower price is considered undercutting? 1 rupee, 5 rupees? For some items, 1 rupee undercut might be considered undercutting, but for other items a variance of 10+ rupees is normal. In order for it to be fair, an undercut price would have to be determined for each item bought/sold in EMC.

    I would rather we had a simpler solution. An idea that comes to mind, is that a shop sign be rejected if price for item is x% above or below the average prices of shops on server/emc. As far as the percentage goes, 20-25% sounds about right. The percentage can be raised or lowered as needed to keep the economy/prices in check.
    Curundu, Jul 16, 2012
    #148
  9. /shrug

    Okey.
    melodytune, Jul 16, 2012
    #149
  10. I don't understand why this will not reach a natural balance on it's own.
    If I open a shop on the new system with EVERY item priced at 1r, I will simply sell out quickly to folks that will resell at a closer to average price. The system should balance itself out naturally through supply and demand, right?
    LZBZ_DW, Jul 16, 2012
    #150
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  11. Yes. Yes. Yes. 1000x Yes. That's how things like this have always worked and will work here. However, some people (I'm guilty of this too in other things) like to invent problems that don't exist in things they don't yet understand until they see it and go, "Oh, that's actually not as bad as I thought."

    So is life.
    IcecreamCow, Jul 16, 2012
    #151
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  12. I'm not inventing problems.

    I'm pointing out a serious flaw in hopes it get fixed before things are implemented. Things will not balance out on their own.

    Before this system things balanced out because people had to work to find the best prices. That is no longer the case so something needs to be done to replace that particular protection.
    melodytune, Jul 16, 2012
    #152
  13. Well, the thing is, this is 100% new and no problems can actually exist yet because IT doesn't exist. If problems come up after it's invented, we can then work on those problems. :)
    IcecreamCow, Jul 16, 2012
    #153
  14. Waiting until something fails to fix a problem that is obvious seems like poor planning.
    melodytune, Jul 16, 2012
    #154
  15. Only if we're not taking steps to prevent it from failing, which we feel we are. All I'm saying is, based on what we know and observe, this update will be awesome and doesn't have any foreseeable problems that aren't just speculation from a few people who don't understand it yet. IF we are wrong, we won't be blind to seeing it and will tweak the system as it needs to be to fix said problems IF (which we don't see happening) they come up. :)
    IcecreamCow, Jul 16, 2012
    #155
  16. No one is saying they are fixing it. The only thing being said is it won't be a problem.
    melodytune, Jul 16, 2012
    #156
  17. Correct. Nothing to be fixed as there's no problems to fix. So as of right now, no problem. :D
    IcecreamCow, Jul 16, 2012
    #157
    Curundu likes this.
  18. Oh, well in that case.

    ok.
    melodytune, Jul 16, 2012
    #158
    Curundu likes this.
  19. Yes but the thing is quickbuy will buy the cheapest, so some players will fight to ensure their item is THE Cheapest, even by a single rupee. Then someone else will do the same, and list theres for 1 rupee less than the other guy.

    The other guy realizes hes now been undercut, and he changes his price. This is an undercut war.

    Simple fees will not be enough to stop some people..

    Listing your item the same price as the cheapest item will give your item EQUAL chance at being seen/bought, and is fair in competitiveness..

    With the idea I said above, delisting their item kills the whole reason for undercutting, and solves the problem.

    Now, the 5 person selling may be tweaked to be different conditions to allow for some fluxuation in price, but the goal will be to make it stay overall stable and controlled by supply and demand but punish obvious anti competitive behaviors.
    Aikar, Jul 16, 2012
    #159
  20. I have an idea for the mega shops.

    Say I want to buy 4 double chests of Cobblestone. Can I do /shop bulk buy if I just want to find the one person who has the 4 double chests? Or maybe the cheapest people show up right? Then they are listed by how much stock they have?
    doopycow, Jul 16, 2012
    #160
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