EMC New Permanent Ban Stance

Not trying to start a debate but if you're so torn up over the nun picture then holy cow. The picture was a way to Illustrate what was being said and to make it not seem as in your face. He could have chosen a far worse picture to put up there. The only changes are the res and rupee wipe and yes some of us feel that the rules SHOULD be enforced instead of this being a grief/hacker filled playground. I don't use illegal mods I work for my stuff, why should someone who uses a mod to have an advantage over me only get a slap on the wrist and let back into the Empire to do it again?

Griefing and Scamming is being dealt with. Because people blab and EMC never really denied it, it's floating around the forums that The Mods have ways to track signs, flint and steel and lava. They do ban the griefers. We have had people stopped due to wanting to erect giant lava curtains and charging people rupees to go out into the wild on their own servers.

An in game jail will just use up space on the servers that could be used for other things.

All the people who were permanently banned lately were adults who fully understood what they were doing.

I would rather they took the time to investigate the person being banned than to ban someone who is innocent or let someone who gained all their items by using illegal mods back on the server.

Caps is considered yelling and spam. Most of those "Don't use caps!" are kids who think every single capital letter is against the rules.

Advertising servers is prohibited. You wouldn't want people coming to take your members would you?

Surveillance and intercepting messages is due to those being banned trying to get people to assist them in bending the rules. If you read a few posts back or perhaps it's in another thread, there are rumors some people were having people clear out their rupees through their shops so they could have their millions of rupees back when they get unbanned. Others are HACKING people's accounts because they are mad they broke the rules and got banned.


EMC is not a dictatorship by far. Most other servers you could be PVPed, cursed at and treated like dirt by the staff. If you think that the mods here are holding us prisoner or horrible dictators then you must be new here. They work hard, do fun things, are adding new features that we want etc.

This is basically what seems to be the boiled-down version of what you seem to believe the laws are where applicable to EMC servers.

I don't know where in the hell you get your ideas on laws, but this couldn't be more wrong, and I for one shiver at the very thought of a place where that is the essence of the laws.

Firstly, the EMC servers are, IIRC, in Texas, and I know for sure they are in the USA. Legal precedent shows that the laws where a server is hosted are the ones applicable to anything that goes on on that server. Your local laws and the same for anyone else's do not apply to them, only to you.

Secondly, there are no laws ANYWHERE in the USA that put the burden of not offending someone onto a corporation or individual, especially on their own property - be that land or an internet server and the files and programs hosted there.

Thirdly, the very idea that any individual or corporation is responsible for not offending any other individual is completely non-workable in any population over one. Your views offend me, for example, and so does the fact that minecraft will not work properly in 16:10 resolution, nor will minecraft run on my 233MHz pentium 2 sitting next to this computer. Are they legally liable for either of these? No. This type of law is completely untenable in ANY society and frankly it is throwing me and most others you try saying this is current law for a loop that someone could even think that concept was tenable let alone current law anywhere.

Fourth, there are such things as protected classes in places which allow the public in their doors, for example stores like wal-mart. They are required to not bar someone from full access to their store because of certain things, such as the need for a wheelchair or service dog, nor are they allowed to bar people specifically because they are black or female or native americans (more commonly known as indians). These are protected classes which have special protection under federal law. However, if they do not want someone who HAPPENS to be one of these protected classes in their store for any reason OTHER than being that protected class, they are fully within their rights to refuse passage onto their property, sales, business, anything. That sign on most businesses stating "we reserve our right to refuse business to anyone" is there for a reason, to remind people who have forgotten this fact that they can and will do so.

Finally, there is an exception under US law for anyone under 13, which at least used to (no idea if it still does) forbid any forum owner from allowing any person under the age of 13 to post on forums or create an account there without prior written consent of the legal guardians of that person. This is a subset of a set of laws which specify minors as having much less rights in this society in public and private than anyone over the age of 18.

Again, as a refresher, I am and have been talking about US law here, which is applicable to servers hosted in the US as well as physical properties in the US.

Answer me this:

Why on any other server where the Admin run around like 3rd World Dictators, does no-one really give a damn? They might complain and chomp about it, but move on.

Why is it only on EMC, where it's well run, well controlled and well organised, do those people who've been found to be doing something wrong put up such a fight when it comes to being dealt with appropriately?

Because they know that they'll never find a Community as good as EMC ever again.

And that hurts.

Move on. You've had your chance and blew it.

Thank you for responding and discussing, I think this will bring some clarification.

By "offend" I mean insult / aggrieve in the first place.
Please tell me if it is legal in the US / Texas, in public place (like on the street) and/or on private property:
- to call someone names like "stupid," "idiot," etc.?
- to show someone stinky finger or similar?
- to troll someone, make someone look bad?

Because in here in Europe it is not, it is considered harming a person or a group. If you do it you can be punished and fined, if you repeat it the punishment and fine will be increased. This applies both to public space and private property.

Wow!? Are you sure? Even with offend meaning insult, discriminate, aggrieve or similar?

I assume you're not talking to me. Or, you have to ask someone else.
I do not cheat nor grief and I've expressed my opinion on these matters several times, look for my postings.
I was never banned from any forum / server / Internet service since I am using Internet (that would be about 20 years).

Yes, all of that is perfectly legal, so long as you do so in a manner which cannot be proven as false and defamatory and do so in a way that does not include OTHER actions you do which could be considered creating a disturbance (this part applies only when done in public).

Penn and Teller have a series called "Bullshit!" (pardon me mods that is the actual name of the show as aired on national TV I hope in context this is OK, if not please edit it out!) in which they expose con artists and the like, without saying anything that would get them or the show in trouble legally, and they call the con artists all sorts of names constantly throughout the shows. Watching that, if you are not overly sensitive or a minor, is a very good idea to see the particulars of what is and isn't legally allowed in public here in the USA, including things you can and cannot say without being successfully sued by a greedy or self righteous person or company.

While on your own property, you are allowed to do quite that much and a lot more, however most of the things you are allowed to do on your own property are related to your defense of yourself and your right to keep others off your property (or no longer allow them on your property) if you do not want them there anymore.

I already covered discrimination in a part of my post you did not quote. The protected class part. Commercial entities (including a single person running a business from home) cannot even on private property, individuals definitely can on their own property and in public.


I myself am very non judgmental and not the type to insult someone, but I would never want to live in a place where I could be fined for flipping the bird at someone or calling them a moron or such. That is the edge to a slippery slope to removing people's personal freedoms...what we do have left of them here, that is.

Wow! You have summed that up perfectly!

What kind of advantage?

I think this is what second chance is for. It she/he offends again, there is (usually) no third chance.

This is what I'd suggest - put a sign with "protect" or "anti-grief" in the first line, take a screenshot of the construction it is on and note its coordinates (could automatically be added to the sign). There will be a trace in a log about who has broken the sign or the block where it was placed (or perhaps some blocks around as well).

There is enough space. Could even have a jail world or jail server, like Australia was once an island for convicted... but I'd prefer a jail in the town, so friends can visit inmates in the jail.
For correspondent offense like stealing or destroying others structures) the avatar is going to the jail, serves time there (only on-line time counts) and has to do community service (like for example farming) and has to give back the stolen items, pay for the damage and/or rebuild what he/she has destroyed.
This would by no means replace the ban (as defined in Term of Service).

Wow, really? That's sad.

Investigate within the server system - public chat, local chat, logs, forum - yes, of course.
Investigate beyond that scope - Internet, friends, private space, private chat - strong no, that would be horrible (IMO) and would do more harm than merit.

Wow, take members from you?
Do you imply that people chose to be part of EMC because they do not know about other servers or can not google "minecraft server list"?
Advertising (ToS again) IMO means commercial advertising.
If someone tells me "I also play on another server, would you come and see what I've built?" that is clearly not advertising. Restricting that would be restricting freedom of speech and communication.
So there need to be a distinction.

This is a very well known debate. My opinion is that privacy needs to be protected and that no one should access private messages without permission of a civil court. (This is also law in Europe, it is forbidden to intercept private messages unless ordered by a court. Messages in public space can be intercepted, recorded and used as evidence.)
So I don't know about specific legal situation in Texas, but I think it is generally illegal to intercept private communication.

I'm not saying it is.
But, what is it?
By what properties would you tell? Are there elections?

you cant describe emc as you would a public entity like a government, because its not. its a business, a private entity. there is a boss(two in fact) supervisors(sr mods) and staff(mods)
i know its a very dumbed down description of what the roles are

You are confusing freedom of speech again. There is no such thing on private property, and this forum and game server are most definitely on privately held properly.

This is not a country, this is a business. it is on privately owned property. think of it as a hotel with games.

Well, if it's an xray mod then they can see where diamonds are and make a load of rupees. If it's a fly mod then... well... they can fly, making building a lot easier. If it's a speed mod then they can get from 9001 blocks into the wild to spawn within a minute or 2.

Already exists, for every sign. Note to self, delete this bit later.

Why jail them? They're either banned, can't login therefore can't play, or jailed, can login and can't play. Seems pretty pointless to me... If someone's going to grief, then they're not welcome and can enjoy a nice long break where they can't even login.

They're not exactly going to spend days on end, googling your name just to see if you're a griefer... /tells are part of the server system, just be grateful that only senior staff can see them - most servers let all their staff (and sometimes supporters) see them using SocialSpy.

Private communication. These are forum messages.... Really... REALLY!?! It's not exactly going to affect you unless you decide to behave like an idiot anyway, so there's now to avoid it. They're not intercepting them... people voluntarily report them...

They already have 10 servers, why spend money on a server to stick people on who don't follow the rules? As for community services that would require you to give them permissions and I am not about to give people I don't know and who broke the rules permissions to do anything to my residence. You give a warning and if they don't stop you kick with a warning. If that doesn't stop them you kick for a few minutes or hours. If it gets so out of hand they get a permanent ban then that is their own fault. I sure hope no Aussies take offense to your little post and smiley there :S


No, anyone with a computer is able to type servers into google and find something. EMC makes money to run the servers and pay their hosts through supporters. If they lose their members then they can't pay and goodbye EMC. If they want to say "Hey I play here" they are allowed to Privately tell you in a pm or a /tell.



As far as the private messages they were handed over as proof. People didn't HAVE to hand them over, they could have just said "ah forget it" and not said anything. More than likely the mods were contacted first by someone who was afraid. Then the Mods took action. Also if they were hacked and someone was able to post through their account I'm sure they have ways of telling. I'm not sure someone passing out hacked DayZ for Arma II to hack minecraft accounts can be taken to court.


There aren't elections because that would just be a chaotic popularity contest. They come up with ideas, post on the forums and listen to what everyone has to say and they make changes based on feedback unless it is something extreme like all the people with the massive farms that lag the servers.

Wow, no rights?
So there are no human rights on private property?
You have no right to be treated with respect when invited to a private property?
Remember, members of the EMC are in the first place invited and wanted users, not intruders!
Huh?!?

No need to get personal here. I did read some parts of some laws that were of interest to me, but as I've written, I'm not an expert.
You missed the point. Of course singing (loud) is reasonable ground to be thrown out of a movie theater, but not out of a rock concert. But it is not the company who defines what is reasonable, it is the nature of the things, it is the human reason, it is the judge in the end - the judge and the court have authority interpret the law, not the company.

Wow! Thank you for that clarification. This is unthinkable in Europe.

A legal contract for example.

EMC users are not intruders. They are invited users and members. Each of them agrees to the Terms of Service and agrees on contract with Kalland Labs. Each of them still has rights - if not by constitution and the civil laws, then simply by being human persons - to be treated with respect and dignity. They still have all human rights. IMO.

"Recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world." http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Well it was not because of lack of rules. The no cheating rule was very well there, they were just not caught until now.

So the needed and very welcome change is that they were caught and that other cheaters will be caught as well.
There is no need to add or change rules, no need to introduce harsh punishments.

EMC is more collaboration then competition.
Is there a competition about who has more stacks of emerald ore (possibly me ? No.
Who has more rupees or stuff? No. You have no idea how much stuff and rupees I have.
Who has more respect in the community, who has good friends to play with? Well a bit yes probably.
Can you gain respect and true friends by using cheating mods?

Of course you need rules and enforcement. But in this case here, only enforcement was missing.
It is still kind of missing for griefing.

This is harming all other players because they won't find diamonds / ores when mining. I think for X-Ray mod users it is appropriate what OP says.
But flying mod? Wouldn't they get kicked automatically because of flying or moving too fast? Permanent ban seems too harsh to me, because they didn't cause severe harm to all other players.

I think there would be following advantages -

• they have to concern themselves much more with what they did and how a community deals with it, not just go to another server for the time of the term
• they can play and have to play to repay for the damage and/or a fine
• they are much better and visible warning for others not to grief
• it would be much more a real punishment than being banned for few days
• it would kind of round up the community, showing care also for (immature?) members who need (attitude) correction ... I think it would bind the community more together

Technical circumstances generally do not change privacy of a message. If you can intercept a message, that does not mean that you're allowed to. IMO, /tell is private and personal message, but it could be defined otherwise in ToS.

Forum messages are not private communication. Private conversation with another person over the forum functions is. I think the best is to respect that privacy.

And yet you have a community that could/should function as a community?
Or not?
So it's not that simple.

For the sake of the community, it's development and its health. For the sake of the underage and overage children playing together using their service.

I sure hope so. No offense meant.

Yes, they can and they should be reported to the authorities.

This is a sound argument, but it means that you say that the EMC community is not educated and mature enough to decide about itself (NB: not about what the service provider, Kalland Labs should or should not do, but about itself as community) through democratic process. (There actually are MC servers that have that.) I wouldn't allow myself to judge that, although I'm probably about twice the age of average member. Personally I wouldn't really like representative democracy, but more direct democracy like in Switzerland, where you have voting for different issues like every 2 weeks.

Edit: I actually don't think that (trying to) deprive a community from the right to have democratic processes is right anyway, even if it is EMC or similar.

After reading every post you have made in this thread I am tired of reading your arguments. Either follow the rules or go play elsewhere. You seem to be more along the lines of trolling and trying to find ways around the rules and trying to prove people know nothing. The punishments were implemented to show people that there are consequences to breaking the rules. You seem to be the only one with the issue on the rules here.

Exactly, there are no rights. Members of EMC are invited in, but just as inviting someone into your home if they are asked to leave (which reasoning can be based on whatever the owner decides) they become intruders if they do not do so.

It is exactly the company. The company defines it. How would the "nature of things" remove you from the theater? As another example, something as simple as your cell phone ringing can have you removed from a theater (by the theater) - that's a company policy. Judges do interpret the law, but as posted above several times, the law has already been written to allow for this.

That depends on where you are at in Europe, but I will agree that several European nations have more protection for its citizens. As the same time, many have less rights given to an individual.

If you attend a major sporting event, you'll notice on the back of the ticket is a legal contract basically offering the stadium and teams all sorts of protections. Even though you have that contract, that doesn't mean that you are above the rules set by the stadium. They can still kick you out for any reason they decide.

See the first paragraph for the first half. Now we've made progress! "Each of them still has rights - if not by constitution and the civil laws, then simply by being human persons - to be treated with respect and dignity". The constitution and civil laws offer very little protection in this environment. Being a human offers nothing but the hope that a common bond in that at least is realized. I think what keeps people on EMC is exactly that. I hopped around some servers before landing at EMC long ago and people here will treat you respectfully. You won't get banned for saying the color purple. Other servers I browsed through along my way here, not so much.

That is a wonderful document written in 1948 by several members of the UN called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It serves as a wishful guideline for what every member of the UN should strive to put forward. That being said, I do not know of, nor can I find, a country that has adopted the whole of the document as law.

I dare say we've actually made progress on this. I agree with you completely that a society where people are treated by the rules of the document you posted would more than not be a better one. The fact is that as of now that's not the world we live in LEGALLY. The good news is that society has continually made more and more strides to get closer to this. Maybe by the time I'm old and gray, the UDHR will be accepted in full.

Until then, you go to a place that treats you the way you think you should be treated. I think most will agree that when I think of a place in minecraft - or the internet as a whole - where I can expect to be treated well, I think of EMC.

If hurting people is not a game then we should get rid of all the Minecraft PVP servers, RPG games, and FPS games.

If this is so, then I have failed.

I do not have issues with the rules, I agree fully to the ToS, I do not cheat nor want to.
I never had issues with rules and I was never banned from a forum or server since I use Internet,
that is more than 20 years now.

My interest here (regarding my postings in last few days) is the community and how the (young) community deals with social and other problems, how culture changes. I want to contribute with my knowledge, experience and opinion. I like to discuss and want to find out how younger (and older, other) people think, what opinions they have and what reasoning.
No offense, no trolling.
Peace,
MM

One of the causes of trolling is boredom.