[DEBATE] Presidential Election - 2016 (closing Nov 22)

From what I can tell the entirety of the EU has imposed sanctions on Russia and is trying to make ex-Soviet states more reliant on it, which is what's pissing Russia off so much.

We put some weeny sanctions on some individuals which most have been lifted. There was nothing done with any real bite. Let's be serious, Putin sees the US and Europe as a bunch of weenies. He has no respect for us and I don't blame him. That's why he keeps buzzing our planes and ships, etc... Turkey shot down his warplane and look who now he is trying to get to be great friends with, Turkey. Cause he can respect them. They weren't a bunch of cowards but let's be honest, we are. All we do is whine about them but do absolutely nothing. And based on the conciliatory talk I am hearing on this thread it's not surprising.

Okay, let's get Theresa May and Queen Elizabeth to give the order to shoot down his bomber planes the next time he flies them here. I can't wait to see the shitstorm that would kick up.

He's best mates with Turkey now because they're getting shit-talked by Europe, people don't like them here - especially not since the coup and their hostility towards us during the refugee crisis, as well as them slowly becoming more and more Muslim, and they can offer strategic access to the Middle East and Black Sea to Russia. If anyone else shot down his warplanes I can guarantee that unless they had something appealing to keep relations warm, he would not be so quick to cosy up to them.

I also do not see where there's 'conciliatory talk' about Russia on this thread.

Well, I do not really care about other people's opinions. I mean, they can vote for who they want too, they are their own person.

Well I'm done with Russia's expansion talk. But in other Russia news trying to influence our election, I did see in the news today that Trump's campaign manager could face felony charges related to taking money from Russia and not reporting it properly. Prison sentence up to 5 years.

I will also be interested to see what additional email correspondence will come out of Russia's hacking of the DNC and turning it over to Wikileaks. I heard an interview with Julian Assange today on NPR and he said there would be more released. It won't be damaging to Hillary's campaign but will piss off some people in the democratic party. He also inferred that he had received some stuff on Trump too. It would be interesting to know what he might have there.

I'm not western European, but I've been there before. It certainly doesn't feel like the countries there are slaves to Russia. If you really think Russia's intention was to blindly rush into and annex other countries, you're wrong. For example, Estonia is many times smaller than Ukraine (or even Crimea) but there hasn't been any suggestion of a Russian invasion. The difference is that the ethnically Russian population is significantly smaller.

I'm not turning my back on anyone, I'm trying to get everyone into the picture. And when you do that, there's not much you can do. The Russians are people, the Russian population of Ukraine are people, the Ukrainian population of Ukraine are people. Everyone want's something different and in the end, if you want to help, you can't pick a side.

And before you try to say I'm trying to justify what they're doing, I've recommend going back and reading the parts of my post you didn't quote.

There's a reason they don't want to. People there rely on natural gas for heating, cooking, industry etc. and taking it away from them could be just as bad as a Russian invasion.

You obviously have no idea about how international diplomacy works. You can't just get up and start accusing people of things, because they can just ignore you and move along. The reason it takes years to negotiate trade deals and whatnot is because every detail has to be discussed, checked, approved by all parties and so on. If someone doesn't like something, they can just walk away and everything falls apart.

And you can't issue ultimatums or make big threats, because firstly, no one is going to take you seriously; and secondly, the consequences of that are probably much bigger than you can possibly imagine. Any conflict between the US and Russia would end badly for everyone, no matter where on the planet they live. During the cold war, there were enough nuclear weapons to destroy our planet multiple times over. The stakes were just too high for a serious conflict. The stakes aren't as high now, but a lot of those weapons are still around.

Dude, there is no reason to insult me. 'International diplomacy' as you must be an expert on, can take many forms. Are you referring to Chamberlain's international diplomacy when Hitler took the Sudetenland, Austria and Czechoslovakia and the rest of Europe said that was ok? Chamberlain thought that was ok, those were just Hitler's, oops, the German people's territory. Or you probably mean how a mere 70 years ago Russia 'annexed' the Poles, the Czechs, and the rest of eastern Europe. I guess those were probably ethnic Russians too, right? Is that the international diplomacy you mean? I remember the iron curtain and I remember the day the wall came down. Do you? You obviously have absolutely no understanding of history.

says no reason to insult
goes and insults someone

The rest of Europe said that was okay because we weren't ready for another all-out destructive war. This is evidenced by how quickly France was annexed by Germany during World War II - they'd previously been able to put up a pretty decent fight against Germany/Prussia, but not this time, because they were disorganised and unready. Plus, you're making it out like Sudetenland and Austria didn't want the Germans to take control of them. Chamberlain had very good reason to let them do that, and if you'll take note when Germany tried to expand into Poland - which he'd signed a protection pact with - he declared war.

From what I can remember that was an act condemned by the other two superpowers of the time and the entirety of Western Europe (and most of the rest of the world) allied against them for the next six decades. How the Soviets got fought against had a very diplomatic approach to it because all-out World War 3 would have been global suicide.

I'd personally argue you're the one without that.

Dude, you're not understanding anything I'm saying. Reread it again and think about it.

I think you missed like 99% of Soul's post. Maybe you should reread that.

Ok, he is absolutely right. Western Europe didn't want to stop Hitler early because of their fears of another war. He is completely correct. And because of that they allowed Hitler to get the Czech armor and time to build up the German forces and millions more people lost their lives. Was that his point? As far as the iron curtain, yes, without attacking Russia there was nothing the west could do. No amount of 'international diplomacy'.

I don't want to keep beating the obvious but Putin and 'international diplomacy' has got Russia part of two other independent countries with basically nothing but words of condemnation. Does anyone really believe he will stop there? Why would he? He tests and provokes NATO countries with his air force, etc... regularly. He has expressed regret of the dissolution of the Soviet Union where he used to be a KGB agent. He will have the rest of Ukraine and Georgia. And I believe he will go on from there. Now, that is speculation on my part but based on events and history. Which if we don't learn from we are condemned to repeat. And I don't think Western Europe has the stomach to do absolutely anything to stop him. Mostly because of natural gas. This is all I'm saying. You may disagree with this. You might think Russia should have the Crimea, Eastern Ukraine and part of Georgia. And you might think Putin will stop there. That's cool. We just disagree. No need for this to get heated. How did this start? Oh yes, it was how Trump is in bed with Putin. I would like to continue to talk on this thread but I'm afraid the points as I have listed above will cause such distress to some we won't be able to move on.

To be fair I was just using the same language he used towards me. I'm not one to be insulted without sending a little back. My bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyPPc38BE-4

Caution: May contain language unsuitable for children

More info on climate change:

Caution: May contain language unsuitable for children

This is great stuff. It astounds me how the majority of republicans can continue to deny it exists. They put out that all the data is just made up by the democrats. And all the scientists are really just controlled by the democratic party. And they can sell that. It's astounding. And you might ask why in the face of all the evidence, in the face of the rest of the world acknowledging it exists, why would they continue to put out that it is a conspiracy by the liberal democrats? Because it would mean that big business that pollute and add to the problem would have to be regulated. And who do the republicans love more than anything in the world (because of the money they get), big business and of course the super wealthy. And of course the super wealthy own these businesses that are destroying the environment. Greed in the end fails even the greedy.

at this point in the election I'm so utterly shocked that I can no longer process how bad we messed up. all I want to say to the candidates is they're winning because they're the lesser of two evils. even worse it applies to both candidates.

#Bird4Prez2k16. Nuff said.

I hate to admit it to you Dr_Chocolate but I live in the state where Steve King is a representative. He never stops saying absurd things all the time. It is so sad but the state loves him and I have no idea why. Iowa even though being in the north is apparently full of hillbilly rednecks. Here are some bizarre quotes from our very loved Congressional Representative.

http://watchdog.org/97513/ia-stevekingquotes/